sad.trumpet Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 My friend wants me to get into Malifaux with him (he played in the second edition but got out of the loop before the third; I am completely fresh). He is a competitive person (so am I) and he usually picks the strongest options available. I think he was talking about Nexus? Also I do not have that much time to spend on the game but I want to stay on the level playing field. We would probably participate in a local leagues and stuff. Given that I am looking for a Master / pair of Masters that would fit these three categories (in order from most to least important): 1. Is strong. Preferably not "broken and will be nerfed to the ground soon" category, just top tier or close. 2. Is not tedious to play and is something I can pick up relatively quickly. It doesn't have to be simplistic but I don't wish to measure multiple overlapping auras every time I want to move a model. 3. This one is a bonus but I prefer the Wild West-y vibes rather than horror / magic. If it could stay in that theme it would be great but not needed. So far I have looked at Bass and Perdita but from what I understand, they are both not very good. It is also possible that all strong Masters are complicated / hard to play. In such case I would go for less complicated ones (correcting for the theme). I would appreciate any help or direction as looking through 50+ keywords seems like a pretty daunting task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimH Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 I've heard very good things about Lord Cooper. The man is a long range death cannon. 1. He is pretty strong and (perhaps more importantly) is an explorer, the faction that is currently regarded as the strongst overall so if you were looking to build towards hyper competitive/tournament play it has a lot of very strong options. 2. A lot of the very strong keywords (Cadmus/Nexus for example) have a degree of book keeping and auras to them, a lot of what makes Cooper Strong is that he has a big gun that hits hard. Similarly one of his big unit options (the malisaurus rex) is a big monster which also hits hard. 3. Some of the stuff in Apex keyword are kinda horror/magic (like the rex) but Cooper himself is a big game hunter with a few cybernetics. He gets a hunting dog, a variety of fellow hunters, a construct knife throwing assassin and loin cloth wearing vagrants who he has paid to run from him so that he can hunt them. Within the faction as a whole there is a mix of wild west and horror, and different degrees of complexity. If looking to keep both masters in the same faction Lucas Mccabe or Anya probably both fit the requirements to a degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 I'd focus on a title. They are the most recently released models and are unlikely to be nerfed soon. Perdita 2 (her alt title) is incredibly strong. Relatively cheap to collect - youd want her two boxes plus guild mage plus her title box. Though some would argue pale Rider as well. Definitely don't get cadmus. The amount of tedium in playing that crew optimally is unreal xD Perdita has a lot of finesse but the auras are bigger so you can be sloppier with movement. And the crew basically boils down to "spam the concentrate action, blow stuff up." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sad.trumpet Posted February 9, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 Oh wow, the help is coming fast, thank you guys. Quote I've heard very good things about Lord Cooper. The man is a long range death cannon. Okay, Lord Cooper looks awesome, both theme and strategy wise. My only issue is that there is some errata coming soon from what I've heard. Do you think he might take a (big) hit? Quote If looking to keep both masters in the same faction Lucas Mccabe or Anya probably both fit the requirements to a degree. From what I understand certain Masters are better in certain situations / with certain objectives. In such cases I would like to pair someone in faction with Lord Cooper. Unless he is a good generalist? Quote Perdita 2 (her alt title) is incredibly strong. Relatively cheap to collect - youd want her two boxes plus guild mage plus her title box. Though some would argue pale Rider as well. Tbh I would love to play the Perdita 2. But if I were to do so, don't I need to get the "Behind the Trigger" box from Wyrd's website? I am not sure I want to pay huge shipping fees to get it over the ocean. Unless maybe it is possible to use her base model but play it as alternative title? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 8 minutes ago, sad.trumpet said: Oh wow, the help is coming fast, thank you guys. Okay, Lord Cooper looks awesome, both theme and strategy wise. My only issue is that there is some errata coming soon from what I've heard. Do you think he might take a (big) hit? From what I understand certain Masters are better in certain situations / with certain objectives. In such cases I would like to pair someone in faction with Lord Cooper. Unless he is a good generalist? Tbh I would love to play the Perdita 2. But if I were to do so, don't I need to get the "Behind the Trigger" box from Wyrd's website? I am not sure I want to pay huge shipping fees to get it over the ocean. Unless maybe it is possible to use her base model but play it as alternative title? Perdita 2 - it depends on your local meta. For my meta, we allow using proxies as long as the model isn't available locally. So it may be the same in your area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimH Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 29 minutes ago, sad.trumpet said: Okay, Lord Cooper looks awesome, both theme and strategy wise. My only issue is that there is some errata coming soon from what I've heard. Do you think he might take a (big) hit? From what I understand certain Masters are better in certain situations / with certain objectives. In such cases I would like to pair someone in faction with Lord Cooper. Unless he is a good generalist? Lucas and Anya both belong to the same faction as Cooper, Lucas IIRC is actually often taking in lists lead by other masters (assuming your local meta/tournaments allow dual masters). The Explorers list also includes Basse (who even if he isn't good does fit the cowboy aesthetic) and later down the line if you wanted to branch into some of the more/most complex characters you have Cadmus, Jedza and English Ivan. If the cowby aesthetic is the biggest appeal to you as a hobbyist definitely go with Perdita as Maniacal suggested. She sits in the guild faction so in addition to being the original cowboy crew you get access to Basse (he's both guild and explorers) and thenthe bulk of the remaining sub factions all have a degree of guns and dusters. Death Marshalls get the titular coffin slinging, flaming headed cowboys and even the generic guardsman has some strong cowboy vibes. Plus both of their big versatile beaters (Pale Rider and Brutal Emissary) lean that way too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 IMost masters can be good. Whilst people often don't rate Basse, there were people winning events with him as an explorers model before the explorers book was released So just using the guild keyword models he had. ( I don't really believe in the tiers as having a huge effect, in general I find the better player wins regardless of the keyword used). I think perdita had the best win rate in guild in the vassel events last year. ( which is only a small data set of results, but it's the largest set that we can break down That said, malifaux doesn't really do simple. It does reward you knowing the game and knowing your opponents crew as well as your own. All crews are fairly complex if you want to get the best out of them. It's sometimes hard to judge the right crew until you try playing them and see if they work for you, but it's easier to learn if you like the crew , so if suggest trying one of those if you like the idea of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azahul Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 I actually think Basse is sounding like the perfect starting point. Cowboy themed, relatively simple (as far as Malifaux goes anyway, but even so "shoot a bunch and hide behind terrain" is reasonably intuitive), and he isn't likely to be nerfed in the next errata. I wouldn't rate him as a weak Master, though there do seem to be issues with his core box minions the Frontiersmen. Still, he gives you someone to learn the game with and straddles both Guild and Explorers, so you can put off deciding which faction you prefer until you get a grasp of the game, find what clicks for you, and see how the Errata shakes out in a couple of months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetalPixel Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 Have you looked at Parker Burrows in the Outcasts faction? They are a crew of cowboy gunslinger types, fairly straightforward to play, mobile and shooty. Not amazing damage, but fairly consistent and from range. Also has good interaction with scheme markers, which make up a fair number of related schemes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Vening Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 4 hours ago, Adran said: ( I don't really believe in the tiers as having a huge effect, in general I find the better player wins regardless of the keyword used) Yeah, I'm not sold that some crews are completely outclassed by others. There's obviously power discrepancies, but I think that it's more that great players can see those differences, takes the one with the slight advantage, and then play well (having a full understanding of how the crew works), and someone who doesn't, takes a lower quality crew, doesn't understand every synergy, and just gets hammered. I think if you have the best players play the "worst crews", and others take the best crews, and there's no horrific luck discrepancies, I think the best players still have the higher winrate. I mean, I suck at the game, partly because I don't spend enough time concentrating on a small subset (only Master not owned is Ivan*), but the knowledge that's clearly gained from playing the same keyword (or a small collection of keywords, if your chosen is particularly weak in some schemepools) outweighs a more general knowledge. I've played maybe 40 games of M3E, and only ever played the same Master twice, at most. Someone who has played 10+ games with one Keyword will almost certainly kick my ass. Skill and experience supercede any power differentials between crews. * I'm holding out hope that Wyrd release a transparent smoke version of Ivan/DUA in the relative near future, as I think that'd make for a cool aesthetic, and it's not like I don't have 50+ Masters (and another 50+ Alts), to otherwise occupy my games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 There is of course a scale here - if the less-skilled player isn't playing for Victory Points efficiently they won't win no matter their crew. But if we are considering at least moderately competent players the crew differences do absolutely play a part and there are crews that I wouldn't start with. I remember someone on these forums asking for guidance in a situation where his first crew was Wong and his opponent chose Tara - that's a very unfortunate pairing that gives a big advantage to one player and can really sour the starting experience. And on a more competitive level, If I can freely choose a crew and the opponent is forced to use Somer2 I would be very comfortable facing anyone in the world. That said, out of the, what, ~100(?) Masters/titles in the game, most are in the middle and are fine choices to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sad.trumpet Posted February 10, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 Thank you all for the input. I might have not been clear enough with my original post but the thing that really interests me is the relative power of the Master, then their complexity and at the very end the thematics. This means I would have no problem playing lets say TT or Neverborn as long it is one of the strongest options but less complex than other strong ones. Quote ( I don't really believe in the tiers as having a huge effect, in general I find the better player wins regardless of the keyword used). Now this is mostly true in any competitive game but as someone else have mentioned, when the individual skill is evenly matched, small imbalances in power can cause huge differences in results. If we will like this game, we plan to stay in it for a while, long enough time I assume to get into higher level of play, where such imbalances would matter. Quote That said, malifaux doesn't really do simple. It does reward you knowing the game and knowing your opponents crew as well as your own. All crews are fairly complex if you want to get the best out of them. Yeah, I am talking relatives here, obviously most minature and card games are pretty complex in their own ways. I am not looking for a silver bullet but there must be some crews that are "harder" and some that are "easier" just coming from variance. @Azahul Eh I dunno about Bass. He looks cool and I like the theme of his crew but just on paper he feels a bit underpowered to me. For example I look at his Stoic Nod action which would be handy as a quick action considering his crew has synergy with healing. It's not quick though and wasting Master action on heal 1/2/3 does not seem to be worth it. Meanwhile Lord Cooper, brought up by another poster, has the same action (difference in base skill of 1) as a quick action that also has a trigger AND gives focus for some reason?? I understand it's a trade off for not using the powerful reload quick action but still just looks wrong to me on paper. @MetalPixel I actually did and I really like the tought of a bandit crew but I have similar qualms with him as I have with perdita and bass (not sure if strong enough). Quote Skill and experience supercede any power differentials between crews. Yeah but as I mentioned when skill and experience are equal / close to equal, the power differences start to show up. From your post it seems that one needs a lot of experience with only one crew to become really proficient with it. I want to evade the scenario where I sink a lot of time and effort into one crew just to find out after hours of play, that it is not good enough to play efficiently at competitive level. Now obviously it is not a matter of life and death :D it's just a miniatures game but I would still prefer to make an optimal decision. Okay after all of your suggestions I am currently strongly leaning towards Lord Cooper, slightly less strongly towards Perdita 1 (also very strongly towards Perdita 2 but I don't think I can get her). I have also browsed through the app a bit and found a few masters that I wouldn't mind playing from the aesthetic / theme point of view: Ophelia, Anya, Viktorias, Von Schill, Asami, McCabe, Shen Long, Yan Lo Do any of these jump at you as strong picks? If so, out of the strongest ones which one would be the least complex? Or maybe none of them are good? Thank you very much for all the help so far, I feel like I am really close to making a right choice. After that I will probably playtest two-three top picks and choose the one I like the playstyle of the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/malifaux.world.series/viz/MalifauxWorldSeries2020-2021_16075309651830/DominantMastersPerFaction Maybe this will help. You can see masters overall winrates in the last tab. Two things. First, set it to all so you're looking at overall performance (or at least gg2). Second, some of the masters may have been nerfed since then, so check for that. Yan Lo and McCabe have been nerfed since then for example. Out of your list, I think Ophelia1/2 and McCabe2 are super strong. The rest on that list are mostly solid. And the data above doesn't include titles as it is from last year... so lots of grains of salt. Also there may be an errata early this year, so things will get mixed up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted February 10, 2022 Report Share Posted February 10, 2022 Oh also many competitive players use multiple crews. Malifaux has a huge pregame process for picking your crew, and there is tons of skill involved. So many players use multiple crews. I tend to solo Molly, but even with her I use models from the entire faction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sad.trumpet Posted February 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2022 Yeah, this actually helps a lot. Quote Oh also many competitive players use multiple crews. Malifaux has a huge pregame process for picking your crew, and there is tons of skill involved. So many players use multiple crews. I guess it is expected to a degree in a game with such huge variety of models. I need to start somewhere though. After looking at the doc, I will probably go with Lord Cooper, Shen Long, Viktorias or Perdita (and switch to 2 when possible). I'm a bit afraid Ophelia will get nerfed. I guess with so many games and winrate I should also be interested in Von Schtook huh? I dislike his model though and rezzers in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniacal_cackle Posted February 11, 2022 Report Share Posted February 11, 2022 2 minutes ago, sad.trumpet said: Yeah, this actually helps a lot. I guess it is expected to a degree in a game with such huge variety of models. I need to start somewhere though. After looking at the doc, I will probably go with Lord Cooper, Shen Long, Viktorias or Perdita (and switch to 2 when possible). I'm a bit afraid Ophelia will get nerfed. I guess with so many games and winrate I should also be interested in Von Schtook huh? I dislike his model though and rezzers in general. Von schtook was nerfed, so that number is a bit deceptive xD Definitely best to pick something you like. The main thing to consider for playing lots of crews is to try to pick a faction where you like many crews. Every faction is competitive and made it to the championship of the world series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted February 11, 2022 Report Share Posted February 11, 2022 18 hours ago, sad.trumpet said: Okay after all of your suggestions I am currently strongly leaning towards Lord Cooper, slightly less strongly towards Perdita 1 (also very strongly towards Perdita 2 but I don't think I can get her). I have also browsed through the app a bit and found a few masters that I wouldn't mind playing from the aesthetic / theme point of view: Ophelia, Anya, Viktorias, Von Schill, Asami, McCabe, Shen Long, Yan Lo Do any of these jump at you as strong picks? If so, out of the strongest ones which one would be the least complex? Or maybe none of them are good? All of those are absolutely capable of winning tournaments and are very powerful. Ophelia is quite likely to get nerfed, the others probably less so. You have four TT Masters and three Explorers Masters in there so I would go with one of those factions but, as said, every one of those is a fine choice. As for complexity, none are crazy complex and you should be able to pick up any of those pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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