Regarding Bombs In Yer Belly

[Vaylos]

Could I get some official clarification of how Bombs In Yer Belly works? 

Does the model who has the upgrade "Suffer" the damage from the blast marker since it does not technically say it modifies the attack?

Part of the contention my play group has is that the word Suffers and it does not modify the initial attack. It is technically a new instance of damage from the upgrade. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

31 minutes ago, Doc Mo8ius said:

So does the model with the upgrade suffer the initial damage + blast damage?

Oh, sorry, no it doesn't.

When blast damage is involved, the initial model can't suffer it.

Same as if an attack says "the target suffers 2/3/4 blast damage", the original model doesn't actually suffer the blast damage (the blast marker just originates from them).

All the upgrade does here is add the blast damage to the damage track.

[Adran]

9 hours ago, Doc Mo8ius said:

So does the model with the upgrade suffer the initial damage + blast damage?

 

7 hours ago, Vaylos said:

Then I would think Wyrd should change the text of the upgrade so it doesn't say "it suffers +blast".

Technical speaking, it suffers damage and the upgrade sets up an additional instance of suffer damage. Which is super confusing as that same wording is used to deal damage by many other abilities. 

 

3 hours ago, Vaylos said:

I attack upgraded model with a damage flip. 

Bombs in Yer Belly triggers and a blast is dropped.

The upgraded model suffers damage from the blast since it specifically says the upgraded model suffers a blast. 

This occurs because the core rules regarding blast damage are over written by the rule of "the card is always right". 

The upgraded model will endure the base damage, plus the blast damage. 

 

That's how I'm interpreting the rules here. 

The model does not suffer extra damage from the blast. 

If a model is hit by an attack with the following profile 2/3/4 and it suffers weak damage, then it suffers 2 damage. That is how the rules are. We can look at page 30 to find out what   means.

And a model suffering  puts a 50mm base in contact with with it, and every model other than the target which is in base contact with that marker (Assuming the marker is 1" high") suffers damage 1 segment lower than the flipped damage. 

So a model that gets hit for weak on the profile I used earlier that is suffering + damage would suffer 2damage instead, just like a model suffering +1 damage would suffer 3 damage. 

 

This isn't breaking any of the rules. This follows the core rules, but you might need to stop for a second and realise that every time there is a in the damage, the target is suffering . 

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Are you talking about the first ability? The first ability says:

Quote

When this model suffers damage from an effect with a damage flip, it suffers +damage.

Anytime something suffers + damage, it is modifying the attack (otherwise how would you know what the weak/moderate/severe hit is?)

So it has to modify the initial attack.

[Adran]

Suffers + is how the game tells us that it adds it to the damage profile. ( You can see it on other triggers). 

If you look carefully, the model suffers 2 damage if it suffers moderate from a 1/2/3 attack. So with bombs in your belly it would be 2that it suffers. 

[Vaylos]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Suffers + is how the game tells us that it adds it to the damage profile. ( You can see it on other triggers). 

If you look carefully, the model suffers 2 damage if it suffers moderate from a 1/2/3 attack. So with bombs in your belly it would be 2that it suffers. 

Does the wording "suffers" here mean that the model with the upgrade ignores the regular ruling on Blast damage, and would also suffer a step downed damage as well as the original?

[Maniacal_cackle]

48 minutes ago, Vaylos said:

Does the wording "suffers" here mean that the model with the upgrade ignores the regular ruling on Blast damage, and would also suffer a step downed damage as well as the original?

Could you clarify why you think it would?

Unfortunately, suffers sometimes means "is going to suffer" - such as 'target suffers 2 damage' or it can mean has suffered - like with the Drink Blood trigger.

EDIT: Whoops, Drink Blood doesn't actually say suffers. So I can't actually find an example of the latter meaning at the moment.

EDIT2: Black blood! In Black Blood, 'suffers damage' refers to once the model has actually experienced the damage.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, it may also be helpful to look at page 34 (of the digital rules) and look at damage timing. There you will see how blast damage timing works.

[Doc Mo8ius]

So does the model with the upgrade suffer the initial damage + blast damage?

[SEV]

1 hour ago, Vaylos said:

Does the wording "suffers" here mean that the model with the upgrade ignores the regular ruling on Blast damage, and would also suffer a step downed damage as well as the original?

The simple answer to this question is no.

The model with the upgrade will suffer damage base on the damage flip. 

You will place a blast marker. Other models touch by the blast will suffer a step down damage or 1 if the flip was weak.

 

This is the point of Bomb. Target a model (either you own or you opponent, but I prefer to go with mine) in the middle of ennemy models. Then because you control the blast you'll be able to do damage to a bunch of models.

[Vaylos]

2 hours ago, SEV said:

The simple answer to this question is no.

The model with the upgrade will suffer damage base on the damage flip. 

You will place a blast marker. Other models touch by the blast will suffer a step down damage or 1 if the flip was weak.

 

This is the point of Bomb. Target a model (either you own or you opponent, but I prefer to go with mine) in the middle of ennemy models. Then because you control the blast you'll be able to do damage to a bunch of models.

Then I would think Wyrd should change the text of the upgrade so it doesn't say "it suffers +blast".

Technical speaking, it suffers damage and the upgrade sets up an additional instance of suffer damage. Which is super confusing as that same wording is used to deal damage by many other abilities. 

Also, please see the screen shot. 

[Mycellanious]

4 hours ago, Vaylos said:

Then I would think Wyrd should change the text of the upgrade so it doesn't say "it suffers +blast".

Technical speaking, it suffers damage and the upgrade sets up an additional instance of suffer damage. Which is super confusing as that same wording is used to deal damage by many other abilities. 

Also, please see the screen shot. 

Well that is how all triggers that do that effect are worded. Sweeping Strike for instance, or Devastating Strike. Thats just what the words and symbols mean

[Vaylos]

3 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Well that is how all triggers that do that effect are worded. Sweeping Strike for instance, or Devastating Strike. Thats just what the words and symbols mean

So why is there difference in how they are resolved? They are same wording, with the rider that the cards rules always override the core rules. 

 

I really don't see how you can reference the core rules to avoid the damage on this while the core rules tell you specifically that the cards over ride the core rules and the specific rule here indicates another instance of suffering damage. 

[Mycellanious]

3 minutes ago, Vaylos said:

So why is there difference in how they are resolved? They are same wording, with the rider that the cards rules always override the core rules. 

 

I really don't see how you can reference the core rules to avoid the damage on this while the core rules tell you specifically that the cards over ride the core rules and the specific rule here indicates another instance of suffering damage. 

There is no difference in how they are resolved. I am having difficulty understanding what you are saying

[Vaylos]

3 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

There is no difference in how they are resolved. I am having difficulty understanding what you are saying

I attack upgraded model with a damage flip. 

Bombs in Yer Belly triggers and a blast is dropped.

The upgraded model suffers damage from the blast since it specifically says the upgraded model suffers a blast. 

This occurs because the core rules regarding blast damage are over written by the rule of "the card is always right". 

The upgraded model will endure the base damage, plus the blast damage. 

 

That's how I'm interpreting the rules here. 

[Mycellanious]

3 minutes ago, Vaylos said:

I attack upgraded model with a damage flip. 

Bombs in Yer Belly triggers and a blast is dropped.

The upgraded model suffers damage from the blast since it specifically says the upgraded model suffers a blast. 

This occurs because the core rules regarding blast damage are over written by the rule of "the card is always right". 

The upgraded model will endure the base damage, plus the blast damage. 

 

That's how I'm interpreting the rules here. 

This is incorrect. The Target never suffers damage from the Blast Marker. The Upgrade would need to specifically call out that part of the rules to overide it; as it stands the Upgrade does not CONTRADICT the core rules, so the core rules must be followed. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

13 minutes ago, Vaylos said:

I attack upgraded model with a damage flip. 

Bombs in Yer Belly triggers and a blast is dropped.

The upgraded model suffers damage from the blast since it specifically says the upgraded model suffers a blast. 

This occurs because the core rules regarding blast damage are over written by the rule of "the card is always right". 

The upgraded model will endure the base damage, plus the blast damage. 

 

That's how I'm interpreting the rules here. 

If you use an ability like Chesterfield Shotgun and have an effect of "Target suffers 3/4/5 damage", do you think the target also suffers the blast damage?

The templating is a bit weird, I agree, but all that making a model suffer damage in this way does is it throws out a blast that can affect other models.

All Boms in Yer Belly does is change a damage track from 3/4/5 to 3/4/5 as far as I can tell.

[Vaylos]

On 1/18/2021 at 11:49 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

If you use an ability like Chesterfield Shotgun and have an effect of "Target suffers 3/4/5 damage", do you think the target also suffers the blast damage?

The templating is a bit weird, I agree, but all that making a model suffer damage in this way does is it throws out a blast that can affect other models.

All Boms in Yer Belly does is change a damage track from 3/4/5 to 3/4/5 as far as I can tell.

Bombs in Yer Belly specifically calls out both the original damage and the blast damage as seperate instances of suffering damage. 

"When this model suffers damage from an effect with a damage flip, it suffers +blast damage."

It specifically cites that the original model suffers blast damage. 

Chesterfield does not. The blast damage is intrinsic to the ability and the blast damage is not outlined by a seperate line of text or instance of suffer/suffering in the blast damage rules. 

 

I think Wyrd does an exceptional job of keeping flavor in mind when making abilities. I think that gremlin bombs going off in somethings belly just might damage the thing they're inside of, call me crazy.

But those are my thoughts.  

Honestly I'd like to hear Wyrds stance on this. I don't know if that's reasonable to expect though. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Vaylos said:

Bombs in Yer Belly specifically calls out both the original damage and the blast damage as seperate instances of suffering damage. 

"When this model suffers damage from an effect with a damage flip, it suffers +blast damage."

It specifically cites that the original model suffers blast damage. 

Chesterfield does not. The blast damage is intrinsic to the ability and the blast damage is not outlined by a seperate line of text or instance of suffer/suffering in the blast damage rules. 

 

Honestly I'd like to hear Wyrds stance on this. I don't know if that's reasonable to expect though. 

Check out the Sweeping Strike trigger. It has the same language as well.

Also, if the target DOES suffer the blast damage, what is the blast damage? If it is a separate damage thing, it can't be the 2/3/4 or whatever damage the model suffered. So how much damage would it do?

Unfortunately Wyrd only releases official answers once in a while.

[Adran]

4 hours ago, Vaylos said:

Bombs in Yer Belly specifically calls out both the original damage and the blast damage as seperate instances of suffering damage. 

"When this model suffers damage from an effect with a damage flip, it suffers +blast damage."

It specifically cites that the original model suffers blast damage. 

Chesterfield does not. The blast damage is intrinsic to the ability and the blast damage is not outlined by a seperate line of text or instance of suffer/suffering in the blast damage rules. 

 

I think Wyrd does an exceptional job of keeping flavor in mind when making abilities. I think that gremlin bombs going off in somethings belly just might damage the thing they're inside of, call me crazy.

But those are my thoughts.  

Honestly I'd like to hear Wyrds stance on this. I don't know if that's reasonable to expect though. 

Wyrds official stance is only likely to come out in a FAQ, and they don't answer everything there anyway, so you may never get an official stance. In general they deliberately don't post in the rules forums because it leads to more complications than it solves (Its fine for a short time, but then you find rulings fall of the front page, and suddenly you get the discussion happening mid game with one person desperately trying to find the ruling that was made on the forums somewhere, whilst their opponent is trying to find the later updated ruling that they are sure overruled the first ruling).

The shot gun says the models suffers  damage. Just because the  is already in the damage profile it doesn't change the language used. (Its actual words are Target Suffers 3/4/5 damage). So it does tell you the target suffers  damage

Bombs in your belly is a bit of a strange case, because it doesn't automatically know what attack actions its going to be added to, so it has to use slightly different language, hence the "when this models suffers damage from an effect with a damage flip" because the rules don't tell us how to do blast damage from a lure for example.

Other effects that add blast damage (Typically triggers) use the phrase, "when resolving the target suffers +damage. " So the "Suffers + damage" is not unique to this ability, and we can follow the rule book to find out how this  damage is resolved, and the rule book specifies that the original target does not suffer damage from the blast markers. (In fact the burst damage trigger is on Mad dogs Chesterfield shotgun as well, using this language).

It isn't helped by the fact there are 3 different amounts of Damage a model "suffers" during the damage dealing steps, the amount that is flipped + modifiers, the amount after damage reduction, and the actual amount wounds went down by. My reading of Bombs in your belly is that as long as the first of these is non-zero, bombs in your belly adds a  to the damage profile, and from then on the attack proceeds as normal. I read it this way, because no other way really makes sense within the frame work of the rules for blast damage that we have. 

 

Ultimately, if this isn't convincing you the way the rules work, then I don't know how I could. You as a play group will need to discuss how you think it should work, and then play that way, just be prepared if you play with other play groups, that they will probably expect it to work this way.  (I'm not always right on rules, but I have spent a lot of time reading them, and reading Wyrd FAQs over the games life span, and I'm pretty confident that my reading of this one is right. I also think that most people seem to agree with it, and as such its probably not all that likely to get a mention in a FAQ

[touchdown]

I think the problem is the word suffer doesn't mean the same thing in malifaux rules that it does in English.

In this case it means add or apply blast damage in addition to any other effects. With the Chesterfield shotgun example the targeted model does suffer 3 damage plus blast damage on a weak. Then you look at how blast damage is applied and it says the original model doesn't receive any damage from blasts.