Looking into OOK Nephilim

[Regelridderen]

I’m looking into getting some speed and beatsticks for my Woe, Nightmares and Mimics and thought the mature nephilim looks like a fun addition.

So my question is, how/if people like to bring these in OOK, and is there some point in hiring shamans and growing them into nephilim?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think @Ogid especially is a fan of BBS OOK. If you throw in a Vasilisa and potentially a doll, the BBS can even grow turn 1.

Personally I often have thought about hiring Mature Neph OOK, but never got around to it since I'd have to borrow them. They seem similar to the rider, giving a solid source of movement for your other members of your team. Of course, in many instances, you have to ask why you're not just hiring a rider (unless you hire both) for the same cost. Mature Neph's combat finesse is pretty brutal against melee crews, though (like most ressers).

One thing to note is the minion status of Mature Neph. If you need an Ancient Pact holder, Mature Neph can be a solid option. They also interact well with 'pulling the strings' and things like Lucius' issue command. So any time you want more minions, Mature neph may fit the bill. Hilariously they can do Catch and Release, which may be unexpected, but then you potentially are 'wasting' this strong model (because it spends most of the game running away).

Another thing to note is that Young Neph and BBS can act as a cheap rider effect. So if you just really want Fly With Me at a cheap cost, they can be a good option for your size one models (Kade, Candy, etc).

Nekima herself is a decent OOK master option for some niche scenarios, I think. I think one of our local players is bringing her to the next tournament for that purpose.

[Regelridderen]

Thanks @Maniacal_cackle. I was particularly interested in how to get the grow mechanic up and running - ie would there be a point in getting 2 BBS? And why Wicked Dolls? They don’t leave corpses?

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

Thanks @Maniacal_cackle. I was particularly interested in how to get the grow mechanic up and running - ie would there be a point in getting 2 BBS? And why Wicked Dolls? They don’t leave corpses?

The combo is:

• Use wicked doll to give adversary (nephilim) to your stab target
• Use wicked doll to drop a scheme marker near the BBS.
• BBS stabs twice on the stab target, looking for masks to trigger corpses
  • Cheat masks if necessary
• BBS uses bonus action to eat a corpse to pulse focus.
• Vasilisa uses pulling the strings to eat the scheme marker and give the BBS a bonus action without dying.
• BBS uses bonus action to eat corpse, grows into mature.
• Net result: mature neph and double focus pulse turn 1.

Wicked doll giving adversary lets you look at two extra cards, making it a more consistent combo (otherwise you're relying on your hand a lot more, and getting the masks isn't as likely).

Basically you need 2 corpses and 1 scheme for the combo to go off. Wicked doll makes it a lot easier to do that efficiently.

EDIT: I suppose you could hire like a corrupted hound and have a guaranteed corpse, but then you're paying more for a model that is gone by turn 1.

[Ogid]

I see you were paying attention . The Vasi-BBS-Doll is as @Maniacal_cackle described. It's also posible to set up the second turn obey by walking and concentrating (or dropping an scheme if you want to move forward the doll) with Vasilisa (moving along the doll)

I've actually only played Nephillim OOK in 50SS lol; they are solid OOK picks.

I've never hired a Mature for 11SS, for that price I'd pick the Rider every time. However with the BBS they are kind of pseudo-versatiles because I can include the BBS for 7 and grow it later into the Mature while pulsing Focused; which is quite solid. The pulse is quite good, it's not as good as a Tanuki for putting Focused in your key beaters; but the Focused in most models helps a lot with the bad card draw of the faction and to keep the chaff alive a bit longer; and it's also the only model able to give Focused to others (not counting out of faction models), only for that is a model worth keeping on the radar.

For the BBS mind you'll need 2 masks; that's the reason I've not tried the double BBS, getting 2 masks is hard sometimes even using a SS to get 2 cards and the doll, getting 4 is too luck based. And I also rather setting up the corpses in turn 1, using AP and cards getting corpses in turn 2 isn't very efficient. Mind also the moderate 3 damage of the BBS, that will happen; so make sure to include also Serena into the list to heal the stabbed model. And even with the Vasi + Doll it will fail sometimes, try to have a plan B.

it's also interesting keep the BBS near of Serena to patch the Mature as soon as it grows; he is vulnerable with only 6 Wds. In fact this is one of the advantages of the Vasi opening, it's harder for your adversary to snipe the BBS before it grows and it Regens 2 in turn 2 (however Vasilisa+Doll deal low damage, so make sure you have a plan for the pair)

I've used the Vasi-BBS-Doll opening described above and I've also used a lone BBSs is some lists. I've never used double BBS, but I've seen in this forum list with them. Nekima is also good OOK, pricy because she wants IR all the time and that's 18SS. However anouncing Nekima as leader will draw all kind of defensive picks and tech into the other list, something the other player cannot react if she is ninjed into the list. One day I'll man up and play her as a leader XD.

With Nekima I also like to include 1 BBS (the BBS may stab her and she will get less damage and will regen, and with her Moderate 5 Focused helps a lot), a good cache and at least 1 Lure to pull her out of danger if needed; she will eat the entire cache if the other player can attack her with any half decent beater.

I've used BBS (and Nekima) in Nightmare and Woe, they worked well for me. I've not used them with Lucius yet I think, but just because I have played very few Lucius; the BBS is very good with him, he obeys minions after all. In fact one of the few Lucius lists that showed up in the Vassal League used it (without Vasilisa):

Hope it helps!

[Corwin]

I hire a Mature Nephilim with IR in most of my Lucius crews. Getting 6+  AP a turn out of one of them can put our a ton of damage. I use them like a yo yo when things go to plan.

[Regelridderen]

On 10/27/2020 at 7:35 PM, Corwin said:

I hire a Mature Nephilim with IR in most of my Lucius crews. Getting 6+  AP a turn out of one of them can put our a ton of damage. I use them like a yo yo when things go to plan.

So why do you spend the 13 stones over getting a BBS at 7-9 stones?

[Hawkoon]

3 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

So why do you spend the 13 stones over getting a BBS at 7-9 stones?

I assume to be able to make use of the upgrade?

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, Hawkoon said:

I assume to be able to make use of the upgrade?

Also without Vasilisa, growing is quite slow, isn't it? Takes until turn two and the placement tends to be awkward. If you want the mature neph being active early (even if just to position), it needs to be mature I think (or you need Vasilisa to speed things up).

[Hawkoon]

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Also without Vasilisa, growing is quite slow, isn't it? Takes until turn two and the placement tends to be awkward. If you want the mature neph being active early (even if just to position), it needs to be mature I think (or you need Vasilisa to speed things up).

That and the fact that the mature is at 6/10 health right after transformation.

[Ogid]

11 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

So why do you spend the 13 stones over getting a BBS at 7-9 stones?

A quick note on this, the BBS will lose the upgrade when growing; so picking him for 9SS with an upgrade won't be efficient if the plan is growing him fast.

Being said that, 13SS is very expensive for my taste (that's the cost of Dreamer OOK...). Before GG1 IR gave it defensive tech, but now that Scamper works terribly with Combat Finesse and offers very limited use versus other kind of attacks that's is risky imo... However if a player is willing to pay 11 for him, I can see why 2SS extra for 1 extra damage in each activation in a crew where every model may obey him and mobile warrior might seem worthy... I guess it might work in the right game, but I find it a bit reckless.

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Also without Vasilisa, growing is quite slow, isn't it? Takes until turn two and the placement tends to be awkward. If you want the mature neph being active early (even if just to position), it needs to be mature I think (or you need Vasilisa to speed things up).

True, there are some nuances tho. If both corpse markers are set up the first turn; it'll cost him the bonus action the second turn (he'll have a 14'' threat range); however that will prevent him from being active the full first turn and he will be limited and with only 6 Wds in turn 2. The lone BBS is good to have a late reinforcement (not that different to pick the effigy with the EoF upgrade; instead of going from 6 to 10 it goes from 7 to 10) or to defend non-premium enemy scheme runners; also in very cautious openings (walk, concentrate most models), it fits.

In comparison an opening with  puppets is 2 Wds more in turn 2 plus the the bonus action (and 1 extra Focused pluse); but that costs from 8 to 11SS (which might be the cost of a full OOK mature or a Rider) in models that won't contribute that much to the damage of the crew and that may compromise the Keyword synergies. If the only thing you want is an agresive model the first turn, picking them is cheaper and more reliable that going for that combo.

The Vasilisa combo is safer than the lone BBS because he will be in Mature form in turn 1, so he can be further healed and will be less vulnerable to mele attacks; plus the double pulse before sending models out is more eficient. This works better (in my experience), when the player wants to make a fast-paced opening (either setting up schemes or threating with alpha striking), in those cases the more operative turn 2 Mature will be put in good use and the Focused+2 may make a difference.

However is worth noticing that a double BBS opening is from 1 to 4 SS cheaper and will also give a double Focused pulse; the second turn will be weaker as both BBS will have to grow and getting 4 masks isn't easy (this gives time to the oponent to storm in and kill both or you have to be willing to acept that in some games you'll have to use a BBS as an schemer because you just got very bad luck with the masks). I don't like this level of uncertainty, but if you do (or play a crew able to cicle cards like Zoraida or Lucius); that might be a good choice in the right game.

My point is, there is no "best" opening. For growing the BBS into a Mature or getting Focused the above are the main options for NVB and all of them have their game imho; it's a matter of knowing them and using them in the right game.

[Corwin]

If the game goes good the Mature is the last activation on turn one having walked up the board once or twice with focus and usualy 3 or 4 high cards. He charges into the best thing he can reach. With 2 Ancient Pacts your chance to win initiative is high letting usualy a lawyer start pulling him back in or into a different target. I take IR for blade rush and mobile warrior and he will charge a bunch of times with all the different models to obey or comand him. Blade rush is helpful to get around various tech not being an attack. I find once I get him in with Regen 2, grim feast, combat reflexes, and a two inch reach he is pretty good at staying around.

[Ogid]

As I want to get more into Lucius, this sparked my curiosity a bit. How does one of your typical lists look like @Corwin?

I wondered if it's possible to obey a lot a non-keyword minion and still have a good hand with the crew; the dissadvantage of using a Mature is losing card draw. How do you manage to obey him several times, meeting all the TNs and still keep good cards in the hand? Do you use adversary or obey chains? How does your game goes if the other player manages to kill the Mature?

[Corwin]

Lucius Scheme  (Neverborn)
Size: 50 - Pool: 2
Leader:
  Lucius Mattheson
Totem(s):
  The Scribe
Hires:
  Doppleganger
  Mature Nephilim
    Inhuman Reflexes
  Changeling
    Ancient Pact
  Changeling 2
    Ancient Pact
  Guild Lawyer
  Agent 46
 

Was my top list in the app. My activation for turn one is usualy based on what I draw with the end goal to have the mature up field with focus for the last activation.  I do a lot of chain actions to help with card draw. If I start with a crap hand but at least one 7 I'll comand the scribe from a changeling getting a new card then one from AP. The Lawyer often goes when  an awesome card is on top of the discard for example cheating the RJ for initiative grabbing it back for a 3 of masks. The Doppleganger and Agent 46 are also excellent obey targets,  especially from Lucius so you get cards from them. I also like to use high rams for Lucius hidden sniper giving out injured to soften something up often burning a stone for min 4 but that tends to be more when I'm playing guild.