Desolation Engine vs Public Enemis

[Maciej]

If Desolation Engine gets killed by enemy model does it give Bounty Tokens to the enemy? This replace effect has "instead" word, so I could believe it gives nothing to the enemy, but that doesn't really feel in spirit of the game. 

Demise (Lost Focus): After this model is killed, it is instead Replaced with an Abomination, then the Abomination Heals 4. 

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Maciej said:

If Desolation Engine gets killed by enemy model does it give Bounty Tokens to the enemy? This replace effect has "instead" word, so I could believe it gives nothing to the enemy, but that doesn't really feel in spirit of the game. 

Demise (Lost Focus): After this model is killed, it is instead Replaced with an Abomination, then the Abomination Heals 4. 

It does not give bounty tokens.  If you go through the Killed rules, by the time you would normally award to bounty token, the game rules tell you that because it is replaced instead of being killed, it is no longer killed. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

What if something prevents the Abomination from healing?

The new abomination is killed, but I assume nothing gets credit and then there's no score off that either?

[diki]

On 10/2/2020 at 11:14 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

What if something prevents the Abomination from healing?

The new abomination is killed, but I assume nothing gets credit and then there's no score off that either?

I think it depends what stops the healing effect.

If it's a model's ability then I think that model would be attributed with the kill and the points. Unless it's a friendly effect in which case the opponent would get the points.

[Scoffer]

On 10/3/2020 at 1:14 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

What if something prevents the Abomination from healing?

The new abomination is killed, but I assume nothing gets credit and then there's no score off that either?

Abomination is treated as Desolation Engine for all effects. I think the model, that killed Desolation Engine, gets credit.

[Adran]

13 hours ago, diki said:

I think it depends what stops the healing effect.

If it's a model's ability then I think that model would be attributed with the kill and the points. Unless it's a friendly effect in which case the opponent would get the points.

A model stopping healing doesn't kill the model in game terms. ( The model is already counted as killed by what ever reduced it to 0) . I agree with scoffer, that the kill credit is to the model that killed the desolation engine, since that is a game effect it will transfer over, and if the abomination can't heal it won't remove the killed status. 

EDIT- less sure now that the credit goes to the initial "killer", see later post. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Does it suffer from game effect transfer timing? From memory the replaced model will die in like step 2 if it doesn't heal, and game effect transfer happens in like step 5.

[Adran]

10 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Does it suffer from game effect transfer timing? From memory the replaced model will die in like step 2 if it doesn't heal, and game effect transfer happens in like step 5.

Just checked the rules (always a good idea), the replaced model on 0 health doesn't die until step 6, it would heal (or not) in step 2 and transfer effects in step 4. 

Although that leads me to re-consider my answer a bit, since there is that step in the replace rules that gives the replaced model the killed status, that may over-ride the previous "who killed it status", and so either no one counts as killing it, or the owner of the replace ability counts as killing it (so the desolation engine in this case).

 

[diki]

If you think the cost of the model transfers during replace as an ongoing game effect does that mean you think if the abomination healed normally and was then killed later you would get 3 bounty tokens?

[Adran]

29 minutes ago, diki said:

If you think the cost of the model transfers during replace as an ongoing game effect does that mean you think if the abomination healed normally and was then killed later you would get 3 bounty tokens?

I don't think the cost transfers. (I also don't think anyone else suggested it. If the abomination is killed, then its a 4 ss model that is killed for the purposes of Collect the bounty regardless of the kill credit debate)

Cost is not a game effect, and it appears on the abominations card, so when something references the cost of the model it would refer to the cost of the abomination, even if it replaced another model. Likewise Stats such as Df and Wp and base size would not transfer.

(Cost is not what you paid for the model, so a model hired out of keyword would have cost you 1 ss more than its listed cost, but anything that refers to cost does not count that "tax".)

Game effects that initially listed a cost (such as Vendetta) do Transfer and do not re-check if the cost is still legal, but bounty tokens will be based on the cost of the model you actually kill, not what model it started as.