Opinions Wanted on the State of Competitive Play

[Trample]

It was early in 3rd, before the changes to Stitched and Idols, but Dreamer/Zoraida as a combo was absolutely crushing everything in our meta. That combo won a tournament early on and, as a result, they implemented the Bans variant (I don't really think that was the right solution to the dual master problem since Bans can hit some factions pretty hard). I haven't seen the combo played post nerf and in GG1, so it may not be bad at all these days. Dreamer is still very powerful in almost any situation. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yeah, I did it last season as well, but highly recommend anyone wanting to break the double master meta to try Dreamer with Zoraida. I assume it is still strong.

I didn't have an optimised list, but took Dreamer, LCB, Zoraida, Teddy, Widow Weaver, Serena.

Could summon 2-4 models a turn (not counting doll, as you upgrade it into stitched), Zoraida has the best willpower attack in the faction, can draw six extra cards (though you don't have to every turn, so your opponent gets screwed if they rely on it), and had 4 strong models worth obeying on my side.

Alpha striking didn't even work against the crew - at one point had a Seamus try to one shot Dreamer, but I just dropped the hit on to Serena. It killed her, her demise kept her up, and she reactivated to heal back to seven.

I find something similar with Molly. I haven't tested it yet, but most of the lists I make I have to ask myself why I'm not taking Kirai (the answer being I don't double master unless the opponent wants to have a game where we both do).

EDIT: on the other hand, most double master lists sound fun, not overpowered. Seamus/Reva seems very inefficient, but I'd love to try it more.

[jerhien]

I suppose I wonder how much Guild specifically would be aided by double master.

This is all great information though, and I really appreciate everyone chiming in. It's good to hear where things are at - did Third Floor Wars set what the circuit tournament rules had to be for the national circuit or did they leave that to local jurisdiction?

[Scoffer]

12 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Yeah, I did it last season as well, but highly recommend anyone wanting to break the double master meta to try Dreamer with Zoraida. I assume it is still strong.

I didn't have an optimised list, but took Dreamer, LCB, Zoraida, Teddy, Widow Weaver, Serena.

This list doesn't look stronger than any other Dreamer&Master list. Zoraida is not that dangerous without swampfiends. A good gunline will be fine against this.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Scoffer said:

This list doesn't look stronger than any other Dreamer&Master list. Zoraida is not that dangerous without swampfiends. A good gunline will be fine against this.

I do have a melee-heavy meta, but the biggest thing about this list is it can summon two stitched a turn. I don't know of many other Dreamer lists that can do it that easily (outside of killing your own wicked dolls, which is pretty bad and inefficient). Zoraida is the only model in the faction that pops out a scrap marker every turn, I believe.

I've not tested it specifically against a gunline, but you're potentially dealing with 4 stitched in the first two turns (2 of which can unbury in base contact).

EDIT: In fact, over the course of the game you could summon 3 daydreams, 3 alps, 3 stitched together, and 2 insidious madness pretty consistently, resulting in... 56 stones of models summoned over the course of the game. And that's not even the maximum! The maximum would be 5 stitched + 5 insidious madness + 5 daydreams, or 80 stones of models (not counting the voodoo doll), or without red jokers 10 stitched + 5 daydreams for 75 stones of models.

[DuBlanck]

25 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

EDIT:

These perfect theoretical maximums don't have a lot of value in a discussion about a two-player game.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, DuBlanck said:

These perfect theoretical maximums don't have a lot of value in a discussion about a two-player game.

Very true, which is why I noted the more common cases (two stitched or similar a turn for the first two turns).

But the crew will be putting down a minimum of 11 stones of summons a turn for the first two turns, and it is reasonably hard to disrupt quickly.

[DuBlanck]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

[Dreamer+Zoraida]will be putting down a minimum of 11 stones of summons a turn for the first two turns, and it is reasonably hard to disrupt quickly.

Absolutely - the problem of feeding resources to summoning crews remains very much an issue.

It was more avoiding the tiresome swerve into "if the stars align, actually Dashel can summon XYZ". Obviously there's a large chunk of the community that haven't been getting table time, and I've seen more than one balance discussion drift away from what does happen and get lost in what could happen.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Fair enough, @DuBlanck

Well to spell out the overall synergies just to make sure it is clear what Zoraida brings:

• Extra scrap means extra summons (which offsets a major disadvantage of double masters).
• An extra six cards means you have the resources if you want them (and the opponent can't rely on it, as you don't always use it). Helps offset weakness of double masters.
• Two strong willpower attacks (though obey doesn't synergise optimally with timing of the unbury).
• Dreamer has strong models in his crew, so Zoraida always has a relevant obey target.
• The crew is good at protecting its masters (and losing Zoraida after her second activation is pretty acceptable).

Which overall leads to the initial point: highly recommend trying out the combo for people interested in double masters.

[Ogid]

Dreamer/Zoraida is strong, but that style has been nerfed over time. Zoraida got several nerfs (cost, stats and also in how much obey can affect schemes/strategies) and stitched's damage while still good isn't as good or reliable as once was. Summoning several models per turn is expensive in cards, SS and initiative advantage, something the other player may (and should) take advantage of. Even if it's true Zoraida may refill her hand, she will also refill the oponent's one; the other player only has to frontload a bit the damage to leave Zoraida with the tough choice.

It's still a good list in the right pool, but their golden days are gone. I'm more interested in hearing about the double master killing it in GG1 tbh.

[Azahul]

6 hours ago, Ogid said:

Dreamer/Zoraida is strong, but that style has been nerfed over time. Zoraida got several nerfs (cost, stats and also in how much obey can affect schemes/strategies) and stitched's damage while still good isn't as good or reliable as once was. Summoning several models per turn is expensive in cards, SS and initiative advantage, something the other player may (and should) take advantage of. Even if it's true Zoraida may refill her hand, she will also refill the oponent's one; the other player only has to frontload a bit the damage to leave Zoraida with the tough choice.

It's still a good list in the right pool, but their golden days are gone. I'm more interested in hearing about the double master killing it in GG1 tbh.

I've heard here and there about Obey being nerfed in respect to schemes and strategies, but I'm not entirely clear on what changed even after digging through the errata and GG1. Would it be possible to explain what happened there?

[Maniacal_cackle]

48 minutes ago, Azahul said:

I've heard here and there about Obey being nerfed in respect to schemes and strategies, but I'm not entirely clear on what changed even after digging through the errata and GG1. Would it be possible to explain what happened there?

Before GG0, Zoraida could obey enemy models to get them to do things for schemes and strategies - killing themselves on idols to move them the wrong way, dropping bombs on the enemy side, killing a take prisoner target to deny points, etc.

GG0 eliminated some of that, and GG1 introduced 'friendly controlled' to eliminate it entirely.

That said, I've never used her that way, so that nerf didn't affect my gameplay with her xD

EDIT: but yes, would love to hear if people have tested this stuff recently. I hope to test Molly/Kirai at some point this season.

[Scoffer]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That said, I've never used her that way, so that nerf didn't affect my gameplay with her xD

You were playing Zoraida wrong ((

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, Scoffer said:

You were playing Zoraida wrong ((

 

Well, I didn't play her before GG0 because she seemed stupidly NPE and I'd have no friends left to play with xD

After that the ability to do that was severely restricted. 

[jerhien]

Alright so it seemed like the intent of this edition was to lower lethality and increase interactivity between the players - from what I've read that doesn't seem to be where the game is. Do you feel that the state of competitive play is better or worse then it was the latter portion of M2E? What things do you think need to be changed?