non-destructible markers too good?

[Erik1978]

M2E had some big annoying ice pillars that could lock down a flank or a model very effieciently, Wyrd saw the light and made all those markers destructible.

Then there are crews that make pit trap markers, again, destructible. Fine.

Then there are crews that spew out severe and/or hazardous terrain, 50 mm markers, that stay on the table and there's nothing you can do. 

Titania makes half the table concealing and severe, except for her own crew. Mysterious Emissary can easily make 3-4 hazardous markers every turn, and the opposing crew can do nothing about that.

I think pyre markers, abundant growth, hungry land etc. should ALL be destructible, like pit traps, ice pillars, coffin markers and others. I've played against Titania a lot and it bothers me that in turn 4, half the table is severe and concealing, Titania has +flip against everyone since she likes concealing, and her emissary has an area around strategy markers wrapped in hazardous. 

If they were destructible they would still be good, opposing crews still need to commit actions to get rid of them and with the amount crews like that can put down.

What are your thoughts?

[dannydb]

or you could just bring models that ignore terrain, either unimpided or incorprial or  have flying ect 

 

titania crews and the like about there markers being realy hard to get rid of outside of a few abilities/triggers 

if you were to take that away from them then they would have to gain something elsewhere

[LeperColony]

5 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

Then there are crews that spew out severe and/or hazardous terrain, 50 mm markers, that stay on the table and there's nothing you can do. 

Just because a marker isn't destructible, that doesn't mean it can't be removed.  This is when you tech in marker removal, if you can.  Particularly if you're ressers and Molly is an option as a leader or second master...

And even if you can't remove it, there are options like taking more place effects to avoid them, models that are incorporeal or ignore terrain as @dannydb mentioned, models with lures to force the fight out of the markers, etc.

There is counter play.  It may not always come from the models you'd want, and so it may be a choice among suboptimal options.  But remember, if you can remove or avoid these markers, it generally means the crew that is depending on them will have a much harder time.

[Erik1978]

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or you could just bring models that ignore terrain, either unimpided or incorprial or  have flying ect

Not all keywords have an abundance of those.

I don't think Titania and mysterious emissary relies on the enemy being bogged down in severe and hazardous but it certainly makes things easier for them.

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with lures to force the fight out of the markers

Mysterious Emissary can't be moved when in severe but I suppose it could work on others. However I've found over the last 50+ M3E games that too many models to counter these markers (or something else) might mean you are not very well geared for the strategy and/or schemes.

When it comes to avoidance: remember Titania can both create and move underbrush markers. 1 or 2 models will almost always begin their activation in those, if they survive Titanias blasting.

What models can remove markers that aren't destructible, if we look at the 7 official factions?

 

[Jesy Blue]

Mancha Roja, Wrestlers, Gluttony, Lucky Emissary.

[FrostHunter]

Also Lotus Eater from TT, Poltergeist from Neverborns, Molly from Rezzers.

[Erik1978]

So not many. But Lotus Eaters is good news.

[Jesy Blue]

Looks liked we're just missing Arcanists, Guild & Outcast... although you can take Roja and the Wrastlers into Outcast, but you can't tech them into the faction if you didn't choose Zipp initially.

[LeperColony]

4 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

So not many. But Lotus Eaters is good news.

Why would there be many?  For most, if not all of the crews that make these markers, they rely on them.  Being able to remove them is going to be highly advantageous to you, and significantly detrimental to your opponent.

Even if you can't remove them, there are also models and crews that can derive benefits from them.  Nellie can use markers to deal damage to enemy models.  Pyre markers are useful to Reva as well as Kaeris.  Basse gets cover in Severe terrain.  I think with the exception of Titania's Underbrush, every other non-destructible marker is shared between at least two keywords.

And if you're not willing or able to include removal or models that can benefit from them, there are still models that can ignore some or all of the effects.  There are models that ignore Severe or Concealing.  There are models that ignore or even benefit from Burning.  Incorporeal is a thing (though not against Kaeris!).  Condition removal against some.  Damage mitigation against others.  Movement.  Positioning.  

Counterplay exists.  If you're not interested in changing your crew based on the match up, then yes, there are going to be some games that feel oppressive.  But if you look, there are almost certainly answers in the model pool.

[Erik1978]

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Why would there be many?  For most, if not all of the crews that make these markers, they rely on them.  Being able to remove them is going to be highly advantageous to you, and significantly detrimental to your opponent.

Keep in mind that a model that can remove them often removes ONE marker in an activation, and those markers are not hard to create for the opposing crew. 

Please don't think I just create my crew without a second thought as to what Master Im up against.

I just think it's strange that some crews can get their destructible markers removed several at a time, while other crews spit out hazardous and severe that not many can do anything about.

[solkan]

My impression is that the mechanics exist for a few different reasons:

• The various "blocking, impassable" markers are destructible because when you can put impassible, blocking terrain at arbitrary places on the table, you can block off arbitrarily large sections of the table from the other crew.
• For markers that are -just- hazardous, the "Hazardous Markers" rule exists to limit how often the Hazardous terrain trait gets triggered.  So if you pile six or a dozen hazardous markers in an area, you (mostly) just produce one very big hazardous marker.
  • But the "Hazardous Markers" rule only applies to the Hazardous trait.  Hungry Land markers don't combine or coalesce for any other mechanic.  Because a Mysterious Emissary overlapping one Hungry Land Marker targeting into another nearby Hungry Land marker would have the obvious too-good-to-be-true result.

So, why should the other markers be able to be removed in general?  There's no general "turn off ability" or "turn off aura" mechanic.

And the problem with relying on concealing terrain as a defense is that leads to:

• Model X activates and concentrates.  Model X declares  Action, reduces Focused, and now the concealment is negated and there's a net to damage.  

Anyone who can shoot can do that.

So it would probably be better to ask "So what crews have you tried using against Titania?" so you can get suggestions tailored to what you want to use to do better.

 

[Erik1978]

Good point, Solkan. I know impassable markers can make for a whole other head ache, like in M2E.

It's probably rare to have a crew where all models don't care about severe terrain (unless you actually play a crew that's incorporeal) I mostly play Ten Thunders at tournaments.

True 8 markers of hazardous become the same trait but standing in a huge pile of those still mean my models take 1 damage for every move or action, and it's tough to get out of since half move through a bunch of 50 mm markers means too many move actions.

Mysterious emissary can be taken by all NB masters. Which means you might think you're playing Nekima and need to be able to take a beating but that emissary in the middle of the table will suddenly have all your non-unimpeeded non-flying models bogged down if you're not careful. It has 8" spell casting that delivers those markers. Perhaps I just need to switch to an all unimpeeded crew, I've just found it to hinder a LOT of charges etc. because 4-5 of those markers mean a couple of my models simply have ½ Mv near the strategy marker where that emissary is planting its roots.

Important to mention it hardly ever misses since you often get a minus flip on your Df! Unless you can use soulstones to negate that, or happen to have an abundance of focus, you will have a minusflip which equals an emissary hitting you and putting down those markers effortlessly. That attack is miles better than having a plusflip itself.

[Jesy Blue]

There are a handful of all/mostly flying crews:  Infamous, Oni, & Nephilim are 3 that I play that way.

I accidentally played a lot of Infamous when M3E dropped and combination Flying & casual marker removal, I did not realize how bad it was.  Played Mercenary vs Titania one time and completely nerfed my free pushes... and then I understood.