Nellie, Plant Explosives, and GG-0

[Yore Huckleberry]

So, the new GG-0 stops obey models from forcing a model to drop a marker ... but the Guild channel has been chatting about whether Nellie can still hijink it? If Nellie gets across the centerline, applies her 2” Exclusive Interview aura, and forces an interact while treating the model as friendly ... it seems like she IS still able to force a bomb drop by the opposing player? This is based on the wording that a model friendly to Nellie would be dropping a bomb on the table side opposite Nellie. Seems legit?
 

Or some note: this takes considerably more setup, AP, and risk of your master than something like a Zoraida obey, so it makes some sense that it would have been “corrected” in a way that still allows Nellie a trick or two.

[solkan]

To be honest, I haven't quite figured out whose perspective "enemy table half" in the strategy is specified from.  The rulebook describes or defines "enemy" and "friendly" for table features relative to the player, and "enemy" and "friendly" for text written on cards and in actions as relative to the model...

If this

Quote

A model with one or more Explosives Tokens can take the Interact Action to discard an Explosives Token and Drop a Strategy Marker into base contact with itself on the enemy Table Half. Strategy Markers cannot be Dropped within 6" of another friendly Strategy Marker. This Action cannot be taken if a Marker cannot be Dropped this way.

is specified relative to the player controlling the action, the result would just be that the strategy wording got more complicated without changing how Obey or control effects get used with the strategy.  So it's probably relative to the model.  (And treating the model as friendly doesn't, historically, cause it to change crews.  Historically that's just been used to mess with effect scopes.)

So if you wanted to make a model drop a Strategy Marker somewhere convenient for you to pick it up, and conveniently be able to put near a previously dropped strategy marker, you should be able to do that.  That's probably easier in various situations than killing the model with the Explosives Tokens, if you don't mind having the strategy marker there for a while.

 

[Yore Huckleberry]

21 hours ago, solkan said:

To be honest, I haven't quite figured out whose perspective "enemy table half" in the strategy is specified from.  The rulebook describes or defines "enemy" and "friendly" for table features relative to the player, and "enemy" and "friendly" for text written on cards and in actions as relative to the model...

If this

is specified relative to the player controlling the action, the result would just be that the strategy wording got more complicated without changing how Obey or control effects get used with the strategy.  So it's probably relative to the model.  (And treating the model as friendly doesn't, historically, cause it to change crews.  Historically that's just been used to mess with effect scopes.)

So if you wanted to make a model drop a Strategy Marker somewhere convenient for you to pick it up, and conveniently be able to put near a previously dropped strategy marker, you should be able to do that.  That's probably easier in various situations than killing the model with the Explosives Tokens, if you don't mind having the strategy marker there for a while.

 

So essentially your theory is that Nellie causes the model to become friendly, but that the model whose interaction she is now controlling still views her table half as enemy?

And therefore Nellie’s strategic value lies in something like stopping them from getting the strategy marker dropped far from your own crew, or having a 2” anti-drop aura, rather than a mere 1” engagement range that can be disrupted by Don’t Mind Me?

[diki]

PG 26

Regardless of control, the model does not change which models it considers friendly and which it considers an enemy.

I think Nellie is intended to overrule this part of the control rules.

[Myyrä]

5 minutes ago, diki said:

PG 26

Regardless of control, the model does not change which models it considers friendly and which it considers an enemy.

I think Nellie is intended to overrule this part of the control rules.

That much is very clear. What is unclear, is how exactly is she supposed to overrule it.

[diki]

14 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

That much is very clear. What is unclear, is how exactly is she supposed to overrule it.

Presumably in any way in which friendly/enemy are significant to the controlled action (interact).

So in this case I think if you suddenly think you are on the other team, thinking the enemy territory has switched makes sense.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think there's a few ways to look at it:

• Technically: there is nothing in the rules that says that the 'enemy table half' has a distinction above and beyond the friendly/enemy status of the model. I think on technicalities, I'd lean towards Nellie being able to force bomb drops.
• Game balance: as you point out in your original post, it takes huge setup and involves your master being right next to the enemy model. Most masters at this point could just kill the enemy, take their bomb, and drop it through normal interact. On game balance grounds, it still seems reasonable.
• Spirit of the rules: the spirit of the change was to prevent this sort of thing. But also that change was really primarily directed at Zoraida. So for spirit of the rules I'd lean slightly towards disallowing Nellie from forcing bomb drops.

Overall, I'd lean towards allowing it to happen unless it breaks anything.

[Yore Huckleberry]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think there's a few ways to look at it:

• Technically: there is nothing in the rules that says that the 'enemy table half' has a distinction above and beyond the friendly/enemy status of the model. I think on technicalities, I'd lean towards Nellie being able to force bomb drops.
• Game balance: as you point out in your original post, it takes huge setup and involves your master being right next to the enemy model. Most masters at this point could just kill the enemy, take their bomb, and drop it through normal interact. On game balance grounds, it still seems reasonable.
• Spirit of the rules: the spirit of the change was to prevent this sort of thing. But also that change was really primarily directed at Zoraida. So for spirit of the rules I'd lean slightly towards disallowing Nellie from forcing bomb drops.

Overall, I'd lean towards allowing it to happen unless it breaks anything.

I mean, as a rules matter isn’t “technically” the relevant case unless/until we see an errata or FAQ? I tend to agree that model friendliness and table half are the significant terms here, but I think Solkan’s correct above that defining “enemy table half” from the perspective of a model would be novel ... but that failing to do so leaves all the obey shenanigans intact.

Maybe I’ll just have Nellie slow their models and make them charge their own backfield instead ...

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

I mean, as a rules matter isn’t “technically” the relevant case unless/until we see an errata or FAQ? I tend to agree that model friendliness and table half are the significant terms here, but I think Solkan’s correct above that defining “enemy table half” from the perspective of a model would be novel ... but that failing to do so leaves all the obey shenanigans intact.

Maybe I’ll just have Nellie slow their models and make them charge their own backfield instead ...

Sorry, how does it fail to affect obey? Obey doesn't change the friendly/enemy status of the model.