Push the model towards herself

[Domin]

Have found a strange situation where rules dictate the model to push towards herself. 

The wording of Arctic Pull action of Thoon

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Target an Ice Pillar Marker.Push the target 8" toward this model. If this Push is interrupted, other models within p1 of the Marker must each pass a TN X Mv duel, where X is equal to this Action's final duel total, or suffer 2 damage.

Masks: Bump!: Push any models in base contact with the Marker 8" toward this model. Each model Pushed in this way gains Distracted +1.

"Any models" means that if Thoon is in base contact with a marker, he's affected to - and so must be pushed towards himself (this model).

Rules for pushing toward are here
 

Quote

If something is moving “toward” an object, it must move toward the center of that object.

Something moving toward an object cannot move further from that object at any point during its movement, even if doing so would ultimately bring it closer to the object at the end of its movement.

Since the two points that we use to measure the direction of the push are at the same place, I think that any distance we push Thoon will fit the first part of rules. And since the distance between the model and herself will not change - push in any direction fits the 2nd part of rules. 

Also, in a similar situation (where was a question about pushing away) - there were an answer that any direction will fit.

Waiting for your opinions. 

[Myyrä]

It is impossible for a model push toward itself, because that direction does not exist.

[Domin]

2 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

It is impossible for a model push toward itself, because that direction does not exist.

I was thinking the same way - before i saw the answers for the question that i gave link to. 

Now I hesitate.

[Adran]

24 minutes ago, Domin said:

I was thinking the same way - before i saw the answers for the question that i gave link to. 

Now I hesitate.

There is a difference between drawing a line between 2 identical points and moving away from one of those points, and drawing a line between those 2 identical points and moving towards them.

EDIT

It is also worth noting in that thread you are talking about object a moving away from object b, which it is obviously doing. If you had to push away from yourself you would probably get a different answer (I don't think you can do that either)

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, Domin said:

I was thinking the same way - before i saw the answers for the question that i gave link to. 

Now I hesitate.

That is just the opinion of a single user on these forums. He does not have access to any secret information about the rules any more than you or I.

The fact of the matter is that toward and away have not been defined mathematically rigorously in this game. We either have to choose to play in a way that makes sense or stop playing until we get FAQ.

[Domin]

The bad thing is that "making sense" is a subjective thing.

[Myyrä]

10 minutes ago, Domin said:

The bad thing is that "making sense" is a subjective thing.

I have hard time imagining someone could argue that a model is somehow able to move toward itself and really believe that's how it is supposed to work.

[solkan]

4 hours ago, Domin said:

Have found a strange situation where rules dictate the model to push towards herself. 

The wording of Arctic Pull action of Thoon

"Any models" means that if Thoon is in base contact with a marker, he's affected to - and so must be pushed towards himself (this model).

Rules for pushing toward are here
 

Since the two points that we use to measure the direction of the push are at the same place, I think that any distance we push Thoon will fit the first part of rules. And since the distance between the model and herself will not change - push in any direction fits the 2nd part of rules. 

Also, in a similar situation (where was a question about pushing away) - there were an answer that any direction will fit.

Waiting for your opinions. 

When you attempt to quote the away rules as:

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If something is moving “away” from an object, it must move away from the center of that object.

and

Quote

Similarly, something moving away from an object cannot move closer to that object at any point during its move- ment, even if doing so would ultimately leave it further from the object at the end of its movement.

you're missing the point of the first sentence.  

You're linking to a thread discussing one thing being on top of another thing, and then attempting to move away from that thing--a situation where the distance between the two center points will actually change--and then trying to claim that an object attempting to push toward itself is the same thing.  If Object A is centered on top of Object B, then any direction will increase the distance between the two centers.  

If an object attempts to push away or towards itself, then no direction will increase or decrease the distance between its center and its center.

That's the difference between the thread you linked to and what you're attempting to claim.

I wonder if, perhaps, you've been exposed to the rules of a different game, one in which "towards" and "away" have explicit definitions which allow for the distance between the moving object and the reference to remain the same.  For instance:

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Model A Must Move Away From Model B: Model A can move along any path such that the distance between Model A and Model B is always increasing or remaining the same during the movement.

If you were playing Warmachine/Hordes, you could do what you wanted to do because those rules define directions in the appropriate manner, choosing a specific and explicit definition of the terms "towards" and "away".

You're not playing Warmachine/Hordes, the definition in those rules doesn't apply.

[Domin]

I hadn't find in M3E RB rules that actually state that resolving the move towards an object must definutelly decrease the final range between them. 

The restriction that such move must not bring the model further from the object that it was at the start of the move exists:

"Something  moving  toward  an  object  cannot  move  further  from  that  object  at  any  point  during  its  movement, even  if  doing  so  would  ultimately  bring  it  closer  to  the object at the end of its movement."

And the reason why I brought the tread with Investigator's was actually your answer:

" If you have to move toward or away from something, usually there's only one direction for the movement which satisfies that requirement.  But when they're perfectly co-positioned, any direction will satisfy the requirement initially, and then because it's a push, you're locked in to moving straight in that direction."

 

 

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, Domin said:

I hadn't find in M3E RB rules that actually state that resolving the move towards an object must definutelly decrease the final range between them. 

The restriction that such move must not bring the model further from the object that it was at the start of the move exists:

"Something  moving  toward  an  object  cannot  move  further  from  that  object  at  any  point  during  its  movement, even  if  doing  so  would  ultimately  bring  it  closer  to  the object at the end of its movement."

And the reason why I brought the tread with Investigator's was actually your answer:

" If you have to move toward or away from something, usually there's only one direction for the movement which satisfies that requirement.  But when they're perfectly co-positioned, any direction will satisfy the requirement initially, and then because it's a push, you're locked in to moving straight in that direction."

 

 

mkay but you see how if you are not decreasing the distance between the objects, you are not moving towards the objects yea? This is what moving towards something colloquially means, so unless you find something in the rules that either defines what "towards" means differently than that, or you find something that says that when you move towards something, you dont have to move towards something, I think it is clear to all of us that this interpretation is incorrect

[Ogid]

Keep it simple. Rules aren't that long to specify each single interaction and trust (too much imo) in players getting the intent of the rules, applying common sense and not trying to exploit them in their benefice. If something needs thinking outside the box and extrapolate a different case to be explained, then it's probably not intended.

Using common sense: A model cannot move away or towards itself. And if that were intended, it's something counterinuitive enough to be covered in the rules or in an example. Also an effect that push a models towards a model causing that model to push himself away is something clearly unintended/overlooked

Using counter arguments within the rules: Each example of moving towards/away something uses 2 different models, and in those rules "something" and "object" are referenced with 2 different names, nowhere in the rules is covered the case in which an object is pushed towards/away of itslef unless you extrapolate that something and object may be the same thing (something that's not specified anywhere). That points towards this is an unintended mechanic because there is no rules covering the case of a model trying to push towards/away of itself.

[katadder]

To push towards itself it has to implode so obviously removed as casualty