Willie has a useless trigger?

[TheJoyInGaming]

Willie has a trigger on his Shockwave action Throw Dynamite called "Fire in the Hole!" that reads:

Immediately, all friendly models within 3" of the Shockwave Marker are Pushed 3" away from it.

 

My issue with this is with the timing of Immediately. The timing rules read:

V. Declare Triggers (Active player first).

     i. Immediately Triggers occur.

VI. Determine Outcome (if the Acting model’s duel failed, the Action ends without resolving its effects. Skip Step e and move to Step f).

 

In addition, the Shockwave example with Misaki reads:

Misaki has taken the Lightning Strike Action. After succeeding at the Action’s TN 13 duel (using her stat of 7). She then Drops a Shockwave Marker within 8" of herself. 

 

Taking the two examples into account, how can Willie immediately push all friendly models within 3" of the Shockwave Marker 3"  away when the Shockwave Marker is only dropped after succeeding the Simple Duel? Unless I am missing something, the Shockwave Marker doesn't exist yet.

[Adran]

You're right, the timings don't work.

My guess is that it should be "When resolving, after placing the shockwave marker, all friendly models within 3" of the shockwave marker are pushed 3" away from it.

[TheJoyInGaming]

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

You're right, the timings don't work.

My guess is that it should be "When resolving, after placing the shockwave marker, all friendly models within 3" of the shockwave marker are pushed 3" away from it.

I think that is the intention so we'll play it per your suggested timing.

After talking it over with my opponent of course. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think the intent of 'immediately' is that the friendly models are pushed out of the way before taking damage.

If it said "when resolving", I believe they would take the damage as well.

EDIT: A more in-depth answer.

Quote

Immediately: These Triggers resolve in the Declare Triggers step. They often modify the duel itself in some way.

The declare triggers step:

Quote

Any models involved in the duel may declare one Trigger for which it meets the requirements. Triggers always require one or more suits in the model’s final duel total in order to work (more information about Triggers can be found on pg. 12). If both players have a Trigger to declare, the Attacking player must declare their Trigger first.

Detailed timing:

Quote

V. Declare Triggers (Active player first).

         i. Immediately Triggers occur.

VI. Determine Outcome (if the Acting model’s duel failed, the Action ends without resolving its effects. Skip Step e and move to Step f).

e. Resolve effects in the order presented on the card, including any When Resolving Triggers. Damage timing can be found on page 34. If the target is killed, resolve any effects such as “After this model is killed” and any After killing Triggers.

If it said 'when resolving', you'd have to apply the damage before the movement. This 'immediately' phrasing manages to move the models before damage occurs.

It's a bit of a rules clash, but I think the most reasonable interpretation is that they used 'immediately' as the only word available to make sure the movement happened before the damage.

[Maniacal_cackle]

This raises another question - do most immediately triggers resolve whether or not the action is successful then? With the current structure of the timing, it would appear that they resolve before the outcome is determined?

EDIT: Reviewed beta files for Ressers, Neverborn, and Ten Thunders and found a total of six examples of 'immediately' triggers. Most of them included adidtional timing information, such as "After resolving... immediately."

My impression is 'immediately' is a bit of a cheat for timing, essentially allowing stuff to occur immediately, even if other effects are waiting to resolve potentially?  For example, Zoraida:

Quote

Df (m) Regret: After resolving, if this Action is a (melee) Action and this model suffered damage, immediately end the Attacking model's Activation.

There's no rules timing for "well, what do I do if I have another action to resolve that came from another trigger like onslaught." Immediately seems to imply to me "this breaks the normal timing pattern and applies ASAP.

It's bizarre that there is a specific time for immediate triggers to resolve, but then most immediate triggers have other timing text to complicate matters...

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

If it said 'when resolving', you'd have to apply the damage before the movement. This 'immediately' phrasing manages to move the models before damage occurs.

 

When resolving triggers can have a more specific timing point to allow them to resolve before the main effects of the action, or at any point in the middle of it.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This raises another question - do most immediately triggers resolve whether or not the action is successful then? With the current structure of the timing, it would appear that they resolve before the outcome is determined?

Yes.  If you look at Detailed Timing, you'll notice that it shows

Quote

V.  Declare Triggers (Active player first)

   i.  Immediately Triggers occur.

VI.  Determine Outcome

If a trigger says Immediately, and it isn't a mistake like Willy's, then it happens before you determine the outcome, so it doesn't matter whether your side is winning or losing the duel.

 

Quote

EDIT: Reviewed beta files for Ressers, Neverborn, and Ten Thunders and found a total of six examples of 'immediately' triggers. Most of them included adidtional timing information, such as "After resolving... immediately."

My impression is 'immediately' is a bit of a cheat for timing, essentially allowing stuff to occur immediately, even if other effects are waiting to resolve potentially?  For example, Zoraida:

There's no rules timing for "well, what do I do if I have another action to resolve that came from another trigger like onslaught." Immediately seems to imply to me "this breaks the normal timing pattern and applies ASAP.

It's bizarre that there is a specific time for immediate triggers to resolve, but then most immediate triggers have other timing text to complicate matters...

I think you may be getting off of Triggers and into other things.

Examples of Immediately triggers:

• Ignition, on Elijah Borgmann's Call to the Burning Man
• Etheric Breakdown, on Leveticus's Unmaking and elsewhere.  Which messes with the opponent.
• Buckshot Backfire, on Good Ol' Boy's Refurbished Shotgun
• The "Sand Worm?!?" trigger on Cornelius Basse's Caught in Quicksand.  Which changes the action's effects.

etc.

For triggers, you basically just look at the first one or two words (after the italic restrictions and costs) and match that against the five trigger timings for when you have to read the words.

Zoraida's Regret trigger, which goes "After resolving ... immediately..." is NOT an Immediately trigger.  It's an "After resolving" trigger.  Like you say, "immediately" buried in the effect text gets used to do strange things, but that's not really anything to do with when the trigger's effect block gets resolved.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Cheers @solkan, that makes sense!

[frumpypigskin]

I feel like, at least for Willie and shockwaves, rule as intended is that when you declare the  shockwave action you put the initial marker down following rules and LOS etc. Then do the dual;

"Shockwaves
Shockwaves Drop a 30mm Shockwave Marker on the 
table within range and LoS. When the Shockwave 
Action is fully resolved, the Marker is removed. Below 
is an example Shockwave."

Except that the rules as written are half a sentence short of saying what explicitly. It sounds implies by the "when ... fully resolved" bit

 

But then.... Looking at the example on the same page it obviously says you succeed then place. Oh well. We let that one slip through beta...