Guilty Upgrade on Ashes and Dust

[Favilludo]

So i was playing a game of 50 ss with jack, running amongst others 2 guilty.

My opponent was running an ashes and dust. In the first round, his ashes killed my guilty, therefore attaching the punish the wicked upgrade to it. So far so good. However, as i then killed his ashes, we noticed, that both demise abilities would go off. However, the demise of the ashes and dust would replace the model with the ashen core, wich would keep the upgrade on it, while the punish the wicked just summons the guilty and doesn't remove the upgrade itself. When i then killed the core in the same activation, it summoned a seccond guilty to the table.

Is that really how it works or did we get something wrong? And if it is, is it intentional?

[Adran]

Upgrades don't transfer across with replace effects unless they are summon upgrades, which means they are an upgrade with the type summoning, not just an upgrade that summons a model.

So you wouldn't transfer the punish the wicked upgrade to the ashen core

[Favilludo]

Ok thanks, it seemed weird at the time. What would happen if i were to put it on an enemy montresor. Since he has demise(eternal) i would assume the demise on the upgrade would trigger as well, but he doesn't die, so would that allow to summon multiple guilty?

[Adran]

Just now, Favilludo said:

Ok thanks, it seemed weird at the time. What would happen if i were to put it on an enemy montresor. Since he has demise(eternal) i would assume the demise on the upgrade would trigger as well, but he doesn't die, so would that allow to summon multiple guilty?

No. A demise effect that heals happens at an earlier time point than any other demise effects, and if a model heals from 0 wounds, it no longer counts as killed, and any effects that would happen from it being killed do not happen. So you only get a guilty if the other model actually dies.

 

[Nikodemus]

What Adran said.

Specifically look up "Damage Timing" from the rulebook. Page 34 in the pdf. Here's the most relevant bit:

Quote

 

6. If a model is at 0 Health, it is killed, then resolve the following effects:

a. Resolve any effects that would Heal or Replace the killed model. If this effect would bring the model above 0 Health, it is no longer killed.

b. Resolve any After killing Triggers.

c. Any effects that resolve after the model is killed (such as placing Corpse or Scrap Markers) resolve at this point.

d. The killed model (its model, Stat Card, and any Upgrades) is removed from the game.

 

Death Row would happen at 6c, but Eternal happens before it at 6a. Since you're presumably no longer killed after 6a, none of the other things happen. So no Guilty.