Shen Long's 'The Dragon Commands it' question

[Gloomy]

The Dragon Commands it - Friendly Monk only. Target may take the interact action or a Action

Can this action be used to make an Aspiring Student take an interact action even though they are insignificant?

[whodares]

No, because the Aspiring student uses the following wording: This model cannot take the Interact Action ...

The wording "cannot" means that the model simply can't take those actions under any circumstances. It just doesn't know what an Interact is. It therefore can't take that Action.

[solkan]

There's a somewhat more direct explanation:  the section in the rules "Breaking the Rules".  The third paragraph is relevant here:

Quote

Models in Malifaux have many unique rules that override the core rules. When a special rule explicitly contradicts the core rules, follow the special rule rather than the core rule.

For instance, an Action that states it does not require Line of Sight is allowed to disobey the normal Line of Sight rules, and it may therefore choose a target in range even if it cannot see it.

If two special rules directly contradict each other, rules that prevent something from happening take precedent over rules that allow something to happen.

Paragraph three is the reason why Insignificant prevails, and prevents the Aspiring Student taking the Interact Action.

If the model were in a situation that the Interact action specified it could not be taken:

Quote

Cannot be declared while engaged or if this model has taken the Disengage Action this Activation.

The Dragon Commands It doesn't prevail because it doesn't meet the standard specified by the first paragraph.  An example of a effect that does prevail over the Interact restrictions:

Quote

Don't Mind Me:  This model may take the Interact Action while engaged or if it has taken the Disengage Action this Activation.

Without something like that, "may take the Interact Action" in a situation where Interact says you can't doesn't do anything.

[Gloomy]

9 minutes ago, whodares said:

No, because the Aspiring student uses the following wording: This model cannot take the Interact Action ...

The wording "cannot" means that the model simply can't take those actions under any circumstances. It just doesn't know what an Interact is. It therefore can't take that Action.

Yep that's what I thought

Thanks

[Mycellanious]

On 8/6/2019 at 8:45 AM, solkan said:

There's a somewhat more direct explanation:  the section in the rules "Breaking the Rules".  The third paragraph is relevant here:

Paragraph three is the reason why Insignificant prevails, and prevents the Aspiring Student taking the Interact Action.

If the model were in a situation that the Interact action specified it could not be taken:

The Dragon Commands It doesn't prevail because it doesn't meet the standard specified by the first paragraph.  An example of a effect that does prevail over the Interact restrictions:

Without something like that, "may take the Interact Action" in a situation where Interact says you can't doesn't do anything.

Can you explain why The Dragon's Command cant be used to make an engaged model Interact?

[Nikodemus]

9 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Can you explain why The Dragon's Command cant be used to make an engaged model Interact?

Because you cannot do an Interact action while engaged (see pdf rules pages 22 & 26).

[Mycellanious]

7 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

Because you cannot do an Interact action while engaged (see pdf rules pages 22 & 26).

But why doesnt the action superceed that?

[santaclaws01]

5 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

But why doesnt the action superceed that?

Already answered in this thread.

[solkan]

9 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Can you explain why The Dragon's Command cant be used to make an engaged model Interact?

There’s a few different ways to look at it.

1. Nothing in “May take an action” or “take an action” specifies that it ignores any limitations or rules concerning the action.

2.  Nothing in “May take an action” or “take an action” contradicts the limitations on the action, whether those limitations are inherent (like the special restrictions) or part of the core rules.

Look at the effects of Interact.  Suppose you were standing 1” from a friendly Scheme Marker, no enemy models on the table, no other scheme markers were in play, and there were no relevant strategy or scheme rules concerning Interact.

What happens if you try to use Dragon Commands to take the Interact Action?  Nothing happens, because nothing specified in Interact can happen.  

The action’s own rules saying that it can’t be declared in a situation has the same result.  Well, technically, even less of a result.  If you declared Interact in a situation where you were allowed to by Interact’s special restrictions, you’d go through the action steps and then the “nothing” would happen in Apply Results.

An effect that says “Take the Interact Action” in a situation that contradicts Interact’s special restrictions doesn’t even go through the Resolving Actions steps, because you can’t resolve Step 1.

Note also that there’s an English language issue as well.  In an Action or an active Ability, “may” is used to indicate that something is optional to resolve, instead of the default of simply being resolved when you get that far in the containing effect.  In a passive Ability or a passive effect, “may” is used to mean “can”.

That feature of English is why the Don’t Mind Me Ability results in a contradiction (the Ability says the model “may” (meaning “can”) take the action) while The Dragon Commands say the model “may” (meaning it is optional to do so) take the action.

Disclaimer:  This is why high level math doesn’t use words, and instead people make up symbolic logic.