Having Trouble Resetting The Rat Trap

[Jesy Blue]

I'm not getting the hang of the new direction of the Hamelin crew this time around.  Aside from coming to the realization that Benny absolutely sucks in synergizing with Plague and Bandit as well, I can't get the feel of what they are built for anymore.

I might just be trying to force my 2nd edition mind into it, but I'm just not understanding.  Anyone got any insight to what I should be doing with them now?

[LexLock]

I think Hamelin is slightly meh this edition, which means that when you compare him to his m2e self he looks like trash.

Making rats is a lot less efficient this edition, whereas spreading Blight is easier (barring the loss of Plague Pits) and the Blight tokens aren't cleansable. This makes me think Hamelin should be focusing on spreading Blight and doing schemes early, only killing stuff when it gets in the way or has tons of Blight on it.

[lusciousmccabe]

Yeah. You might as well forget about the rats for the most part. Blight is his thing now.

[Adran]

I've not played it for the last few months of beta evalution, so my tactics are no longer correct, but I would strongly consider for your First Activation each turn using up as many rats as you need to to use up all those pass tokens your opponent has. Rats are easy enough to kill that you are in danger of being out activated if they are left in activated. You can use Hamlin later to let the rats turn into Kings and so forth if the opportunity arises.  They then make a tough choice for your opponent, do they kill them which will just give you cards, or ignore them and leave you access to that resource.

 

Its probably best you don't try and use him how you would in the last edition, and if possible forget that entirely because that probably doesn't work anymore.

 

[Jesy Blue]

Thanks for the insight.  Well, I'll try going for a variation on an older crew and see if I can lock everyone down in my own bubble and force the Blight on, see if that works

Soul Stone Cache: 8
[Masters]
 - Hamelin, Leader
[Henchmen]
 - Nix
   + Servant of Dark Powers
 - Montresor
   + Servant of Dark Powers
[Enforcers]
 - Obedient Wretch
 - Malifaux Child
[Minions]
 - Winged Plague
 - Winged Plague
 - Winged Plague
 - Stolen
 - Stolen
 - Stolen

 

[LexLock]

I kind of dig the Winged Plague spam, although they die to a stiff breeze, so you better give them fast and just try and make sure nothing can target them because they have 0 defenses.

The more Rat Summony lists end up spending a bunch of AP on Benny Wolcomb's summoning first turn and I'm not sure how worthwhile it is. I always end up summoning rats with Benny first turn and then being like now what? he just doesn't feel great to put on the table.

[lusciousmccabe]

Benny can be pretty good in my experience, but he's another fast, squishy blight vector so kind of doubles down with the winged plague. He used to have a gun which made him a bit more unique in role.

I usually used him to get in somethings face early game and blight the hell out of it. The Emmisary is a nice combo piece with him as it gives him a push and fast for no AP. It's very easy to overreach with this method so try to go for more isolated targets and leave suicide duty to the plagues, they're better at it anyway with gross explosion.

This option usually means forgoing the Benny rat-factory, but I also question the efficiency of that option, particularly in terms of net AP.

[OhRlyeh]

On 6/17/2019 at 10:30 AM, Jesy Blue said:

Thanks for the insight.  Well, I'll try going for a variation on an older crew and see if I can lock everyone down in my own bubble and force the Blight on, see if that works

Soul Stone Cache: 8
[Masters]
 - Hamelin, Leader
[Henchmen]
 - Nix
   + Servant of Dark Powers
 - Montresor
   + Servant of Dark Powers
[Enforcers]
 - Obedient Wretch
 - Malifaux Child
[Minions]
 - Winged Plague
 - Winged Plague
 - Winged Plague
 - Stolen
 - Stolen
 - Stolen

 

The 8 SS looks like almost the only thing you got right with this list.
You are wasting 12 points on Winged Plague. They are garbage, don't hire them ever. That is your first problem.
OW is only useful if you are facing someone that Analyze Weakness is useful against. He is no longer core to the crew. Don't hire him unless the situation arises. That is your second problem.
I don't know what Malifaux Child is trying to do in that crew. I don't know what Montresor is trying to do here either. It looks like you are throwing all of Hamlin's synergy out. He is def not going to work like that. That is your Third problem. 

Take Benny. He is hard to use but he is great if you get the hang of him. Play him and learn a bit. He can summon a rat king on your first 2 turns if you position everything correctly (you need to hire 2 rats to do this) Use some of those SS to keep him alive. After he suffers damage he summons a rat....keep him up and bleeding to make more rats that help spread blight, lock down charges and make kings. Benny is the rat engine in M3E Hamlin and Hamlin needs rats even if you aren't using them to summon. 
Midnight Stalker is absolutely amazing in a Hamlin crew I find him to be an autohire in pretty much every scheme pool. 
Hire a rat catcher, they are amazing now. 

 

[Jesy Blue]

I've tried Benny.  He's terrible.

The rats are doing nothing but dying.  They cannot lock down charges because they are Size 0. 

What does Hamelin need the rats for?  Blight?  They are only giving out 1 Blight a hit, if they hit, which they don't, because they die before they can swing.

Obiedent Wretch is strictly there for Bleeding Disease purposes, and if I end up fighting a heavily Armored crew, bonus.

Montressor is going to draw everyone to him with Nix, who Drinks Spirit everyone stuck in Montressor's Staggered bubble, making them fail, which heals Nix every failure, and everytime they fail Montressor's Terrifying.  With that and Eternal, the two of them stay up forever on 8 Soul Stones. 

Winged Plague are for everyone else not stick in the Blight Bubble, and they're supposed to die... once I get close because then they give more Blight when they die, there by design.

You are actually right about the Malifaux Child... I forgot he can't copy Bleeding Disease any more; he's getting dropped.

[Morgan Vening]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

The rats are doing nothing but dying.  They cannot lock down charges because they are Size 0. 

Am I missing something in the rules? Sure, Puny means they can't stop a model from charging, but AFAICT, there's nothing stopping you clogging up charge lanes to protect more important models, or using 3 to surround an enemy, locking them in place. Last sentence of pg14, para 2 "Models may not move through other models."

And while I've not played Hamelin yet, my impression of the use of Winged Plague matches yours. Use Rat Catchers for Fast, and flight to move them forward and keep them hidden, then leap them forward hoping to engage 1-2 models, with hopefully at least one more inside the Diseased bubble. If they don't kill it, that'll be 2-3 Blight. If they do, that's an extra one.

 

[OhRlyeh]

Benny isn't terrible you are probably  just playing him wrong. He is 100% a support model. I have gotten good use out of him in almost every game. He, Nix and a Rat Catcher are really important pieces in getting Hamlin to work. 

Morgan is right. Charging is a push and must be in a straight line. You can use rats by positioning them correctly and using them for board control.

Rats are a resource now. Hamlin's crew can do a bunch of things with them. Hamlin can explode them for 2 damage and blight in a . He can also activate all of them within 6 and have them each take free focused attacks. (note Yellow Teeth's text with this). Benny can use them for straight damage as a free action, he can turn them into scheme markers. Rat Catchers use them as armor and eat them for health. If you are only thinking about them in terms of attacks, and summoning, your head is still in M2E. It also might be possible you are bringing Hamlin against the wrong opponents. Hamlin doesn't do well against blasts or black blood. Crews that are heavy in that will counter him hard and if you are trying to learn him in that environment, you are going to have a bad day. If they are dying to normal attacks, that actually isn't a bad thing.  You opponent is wasting AP on them instead of your other models. 

 What Morgan says about WP is absolutely true. It obvious what theory crafting says they are supposed to do.....I promise you it doesn't work and you end up wasting 4 SS on each one to MAYBE get a plague marker on a model or two. Hamlin has so many ways to apply markers you don't need to blow SS for that.  WP die to almost any other model in the game in 1 or 2 hits. They have no survivability and no escapes. They just get removed before they can do anything you want them to. Instead of wasting 12SS on models that are "supposed to die" you should spend them on models that are going to have an effect on the game. You can keep banging your head against that wall trying to get Winged Plague to work or you can look at the wall with all the bloody forehead prints left there from Beta and hire something good. 

M3E Hamlin has a really high learning curve and takes much more finesse than in M2E. He does A LOT of things and that makes him pretty versatile but he does have a couple exploitable weaknesses that you have to learn to play around. He might just not be right for your play-style. 

[Jesy Blue]

 

1 hour ago, Morgan Vening said:

Last sentence of pg14, para 2 "Models may not move through other models."

Ohhhh, I was playing on Hard Mode.... that makes rats worth at least a nickel.    They were just getting walked over.

Let's try using the actual rules for the next game.

[OhRlyeh]

TRUTH!  Things are so different now! so many games doing things completely wrong! Imagine what it was like with the rules changing every week. I still make mistakes cause I am remembering a rule from 6 months ago. :D

 

[OhRlyeh]

Hamlin is super dense too... His crews cards are chocked full of text, more than most other crews. I just switched over to Tara for a few games and I was like oh... there are only three things on this card.. sweet! There is so much to remember with him and so many ways each model can work in different situations... He is extra hard mode.

[Adran]

9 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

I've tried Benny.  He's terrible.

The rats are doing nothing but dying.  They cannot lock down charges because they are Size 0. 

What does Hamelin need the rats for?  Blight?  They are only giving out 1 Blight a hit, if they hit, which they don't, because they die before they can swing.

Obiedent Wretch is strictly there for Bleeding Disease purposes, and if I end up fighting a heavily Armored crew, bonus.

Montressor is going to draw everyone to him with Nix, who Drinks Spirit everyone stuck in Montressor's Staggered bubble, making them fail, which heals Nix every failure, and everytime they fail Montressor's Terrifying.  With that and Eternal, the two of them stay up forever on 8 Soul Stones. 

Winged Plague are for everyone else not stick in the Blight Bubble, and they're supposed to die... once I get close because then they give more Blight when they die, there by design.

You are actually right about the Malifaux Child... I forgot he can't copy Bleeding Disease any more; he's getting dropped.

I'm sure there are several ways that you can play Hamlin, and get useful work. What you do need to do is treat your rats as counters rather than models. If your opponent kills a rat it has just cost them an action and earned you a card. If they don't kill that rat, you can potentiall use it for damage, area protection, scheme dropping, summoning  as well as card draw with most of those things.

Benny is a support model, that only works if you play the game he is trying to support, so by all means don't use him. I personally think his little rats in tiny hats action is a trap that M2E players fall into thinking that they want a giant rat swarm again. But he certainly has some uses.

Likewise I'm pretty sure there is a good use for Winged plagues, but again, you need to play a game that suits that use and OhRlyeh certainly doesn't.  I've not yet really used them, so I'm not sure on what that use is, but I'm a big fan of experimentation and self discovery.

[OhRlyeh]

Yeah self discovery is super important, you are right. I do find however that the only people lauding WP as useful are people who say things like "I'm pretty sure there is a good use for Winged plagues but I've not yet really used them" Theory crafting is fun but isn't really helpful to someone asking for advice on how to make a master work or help correcting their build. That is just leading them to more frustrating games which isn't fun for them. Jesy didn't ask for permission for self discovery, they asked specifically for "insight". Advice from much experience has been given. Take it or leave it. In the end its your game.