Joss and Hyper reactor

[Ludvig]

Just let me get this straight: Immediate triggers happen no matter if you win or lose the duel. Joss has Hyper reactor so he could miss and still gain a power token?

(tomes) Hyper Reactor: Enemy only Immediately, this model gains a Power Token.

 

 

[Nikodemus]

Detailed Timing chart on beta rulebook page 35 states that Immediately triggers occur BEFORE determining success.

Quote

d. Perform Duels.
I. Modify The Duel with Soulstones, Abilities, or other game effects (Active player first).
II. Flip Fate Cards.
i. Both players flip cards then choose a card (Active player first).
III. Cheat Fate (player with lowest total first).
IV. Declare Triggers (Active player first).
i. Immediately Triggers occur.
V. Determine Success (if the Acting model’s duel failed, the Action ends without resolving its
effects. Skip Step e and move to Step f).

 

[solkan]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Just let me get this straight: Immediate triggers happen no matter if you win or lose the duel. Joss has Hyper reactor so he could miss and still gain a power token?

For the record, the timing of Immediate triggers is generally unchanged from M2E to M3E.

Quote

Immediately: These Triggers resolve in the Declare Triggers step. They often modify the duel itself in some way.

I think if you went through and compiled up the list of Immediately triggers, you could make a joke about what the word "often" means compared to the effects that made it into the game.  😎

 

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

(tomes) Hyper Reactor: Enemy only Immediately, this model gains a Power Token.

Look at the Hungry Pigs trigger on the Feed the Pigs actions on the Slop Hauler, and get the public service announcements ready.  

 

[Morgan Vening]

10 minutes ago, solkan said:

Look at the Hungry Pigs trigger on the Feed the Pigs actions on the Slop Hauler, and get the public service announcements ready.  

I wonder if that's intended. I mean, it's clear that they want the models to be able to move in, before the pulse happens, but to be able to get that effect on a failure?

Whatever, I plan to abuse it if I can.

Just had a quick check, and the following are also abusable in that manner.

- Drachen Trooper's Move or Burn trigger to pulse out unresistable Burning+2.
- Elijah Borgmann can also do this if needed with Call to the Burning Man.
- Willie can push friendlies 3" with Fire in the Hole on his Thrown Dynamite.

 

[Ludvig]

I guess one should wait for the final rules before mining for exploits but I just can't help myself. 

Joss looks seriously power hungry so it shouldn't completely break him. It will just be one of those moves that nets you a small sigh in the beginning. 

[solkan]

31 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

I wonder if that's intended. I mean, it's clear that they want the models to be able to move in, before the pulse happens, but to be able to get that effect on a failure?

If it wasn't intended, they should have used the word "When resolving".    

31 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Whatever, I plan to abuse it if I can.

Just had a quick check, and the following are also abusable in that manner.

- Drachen Trooper's Move or Burn trigger to pulse out unresistable Burning+2.

The model that has Demise(Flaming+2) has an action that it can use to do to the same thing on a tome (except for the killing itself bit ).  And it has a Mv4.

31 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

- Elijah Borgmann can also do this if needed with Call to the Burning Man.
- Willie can push friendlies 3" with Fire in the Hole on his Thrown Dynamite.

Call to the Burning Man is a 5 or better for the main effect, and/or a ram to get the trigger off. 

Throw Dynamite requires a 7 or better to get the damaging effect off, and/or a mask to get the push effect off.

Do you think suit exhaustion will still be a thing in M3E?  😎

[Morgan Vening]

43 minutes ago, solkan said:

If it wasn't intended, they should have used the word "When resolving".    

The model that has Demise(Flaming+2) has an action that it can use to do to the same thing on a tome (except for the killing itself bit ).  And it has a Mv4.

Call to the Burning Man is a 5 or better for the main effect, and/or a ram to get the trigger off. 

Throw Dynamite requires a 7 or better to get the damaging effect off, and/or a mask to get the push effect off.

Do you think suit exhaustion will still be a thing in M3E?  😎

When resolving doesn't work for the Piggies one.

pg 35, C.2.e. Resolve effects in the order presented on the card, including any When Resolving Triggers. Damage timing can be found on page @@. If the target is killed, resolve any effects such as “After this model is killed” and any After killing Triggers.

Meaning the heal would come before the push. The only timing currently available is Immediately, which is before the test, meaning a failed test still gets the push.

Drachen Trooper means that even if your opponent tries to tie him up, he can still set them alight with any Ram. And if you've got models nearby on 1W and Dist/Slow/Stagg, you might not want to have it successfully go off (Move and Burn's effects aren't optional), but still want to apply Burning. Elijah less so, but if you are already on full health and engaged, you can flip/cheat in the 1-4 of Rams and still get the 

Similarly, you might not want the Shockwave to happen, and get the push, with Willie.

The issue at play is that with the exception of Joss, all of these are Simple Duels, and it just feels weird that you can get a significant effect out of them even when failing, because of the way Immediately works. Or that you might actively make them fail, to gain the Immediately trigger.

As @Ludvig says though, that might change between the Beta and the official release, though if I was betting, I'd say it won't.

[Gnomezilla]

My first thought is ‘if you aren’t declaring a crow trigger on Joss’ attack, what are you doing with your life?!’. (This may be related to my surprise that Joss ever has a power token available to use his free action.)

 

It is difficult to speculate, but the dev who developed M3e ‘immediately’ seems to have used it very sparingly and with knowledge. The ‘even on failure’ effect might have been anticipated. I make no guarantees about timing rewrites suggested by anyone else.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Morgan Vening said:

When resolving doesn't work for the Piggies one.

pg 35, C.2.e. Resolve effects in the order presented on the card, including any When Resolving Triggers. Damage timing can be found on page @@. If the target is killed, resolve any effects such as “After this model is killed” and any After killing Triggers.

Meaning the heal would come before the push. The only timing currently available is Immediately, which is before the test, meaning a failed test still gets the push.

At this point we're having a bull contest about what the rules could have said if they didn't want to use the word "immediately."  If it was "when resolving", the words would have had to be slightly different to produce the expected results, depending on what you expected the results to be.