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Hello guys,

 

I've started a Kirai crew a while ago as I really liked her crews aesthetics. I recently purchased Archie as I'm always attracted to the big (aka expensive) models.

I just wanted to ask how different people play Kirai, I haven't played a lot of games with her, but so far I really like datsu bah and Izamu. They're so much synnergy there with Kirai.

I wanted to ask if people play Archie with Kirai and how he fits into the crew. It looks like he benefits from the fact that Kirai doesn't use corpse markers like a lot of other resser masters do.

 

Thoughts?

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I have played a few games with Kirai (not loads) but I will share what I know/have theorised/seen.

Datsu - I have used a fair bit and usually with MLH to get an extra card and summon a second seishin, I have heard some people use the grave spirit with her to give her armour and provided they don't have ways to ignore both armour and incorp she becomes a mega tank.

Izamu - Used him a little because really his problem is his movement but Kirai can get around this with her movement shenanigans.

Emissary - conflux makes casts count as melee for incorporeal and have shard which provides a zombie for another activation/summon anchor.

Flesh construct - lots of wounds and their poison heals them gradually back, great summon anchor (could also maybe take a nurse to heal/paralyse and provide more summons).

Desperate mercs/gravediggers - these work in tandem with each other, desperate mercs are the summon anchors keeping them close enough that when you kill them you get the stone back also close enough so that the corpse marker they drop gets gobbled up by the gravedigger for a card.

Hanged - you ideal summons to just be a pain (horror duels etc)

Philip and the Nanny - card draw

Dead doxie - good pushes and easy to get some markers down for Philip to eat up.

Hope that helps a little, as for Archie he doesn't really synergise with Kirai IMO

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@Cleezy could you please explain Gravedigger/Merc? I mean it's clear how it works, but is it worth it? 11ss for a summon anchor on turn 1 + card + 1ss to pool. I can imagine that you can summon Drowned + something expensive so Drowned can become an anchor for Turn 2 and give another card due to Gravedigger. But still, what is the profit of Gravedigger overall?

I didn't got my models from GenCon yet, so still didn't try Gravedigger myself

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I would guess the grave diggers are for extra card draw. I've seen night terrors used instead of the Mercs as a ss cheaper, but the Mercs will get the stone back which might be an advantage as it lets you go higher than cache. I'm not sure how much card draw I'd need from the grave digger to make it seem worthwhile. 

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15 hours ago, Adran said:

I would guess the grave diggers are for extra card draw. I've seen night terrors used instead of the Mercs as a ss cheaper, but the Mercs will get the stone back which might be an advantage as it lets you go higher than cache. I'm not sure how much card draw I'd need from the grave digger to make it seem worthwhile. 

Night Terror are good summoning anchor, but they don't drop corpse markers, so it's not a replacement for Mercs in such combo. Gravedigger will provide one card per corpse, corpse will most likely be generated as a result of Kirai summoning and Kirai will most likely summon 2 models from one anchor. So it's one corpse per turn, wich means one extra card during Masters activation (after spending 2AP). Looks like it don't worth 7ss to me... But maybe there is something that i don't see?

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Is there still any point in bringing summoning anchors when you can just plop in Asura Rotten and get a free Mindless Zombie per Turn? Seishin are also pretty free to summon if you bring in a Goryo, so that option also exists.

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Asura is 8ss and she provide one zombie per turn. Zombie is 3Wd so it will be enough for 1 summon. Its hard to say what else useful actions can Asura do in Kirai crew... With Gravedigger zombies at least will give a card after death, but it's already 15ss spend just to make one summon and one card per turn :(

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27 minutes ago, whodares said:

Is there still any point in bringing summoning anchors when you can just plop in Asura Rotten and get a free Mindless Zombie per Turn? Seishin are also pretty free to summon if you bring in a Goryo, so that option also exists.

Indeed, I'm convinced you can play Kirai with just the seishin for summoning, but then you'll need datsue bah with my little helper to get you going.

You're not summoning 3 models a turn off seishin this way, but I also don't think that's the way to go most of the time. Kirai also supports her crew pretty nicely so there's other stuff she can do. 

I don't see any need to summon off your own non-peon models. Some exceptions, sometimes you'll want to actually kill your own models to deny schemes, or depending on kirai's upgrades for scheme markers, or if you really need a summon somewhere that you can't get otherwise.

I agree that archie doesn't have obvious synnergy with Kirai, though I think people sometimes overdo it and try and find nice synnergy, interactions, tricks between all models in the crew. Synnergy is great, but can't go wrong with 3 min 4 damage attacks is what I'm thinking. The fact that Archie uses corpse markers makes it a bit easier in a Kirai crew as you don't use them. But also don't forget that Kirai really likes hiring living or undead models for malevolence. So don't forget that Kirai gives Archie another layer of "protection". People are not going to want to ignore him, meaning they also can't avoid getting Ikyrio thrown in their face (even multiple times a turn possibly).

Archie will suffer from the fact that Izamu exists and costs 3ss less and is a spirit as well as undead. Izamu is probably the more efficient choice, but I will try out both some more before really having a strong opinion. Archie is quite a bit more resilient though, especially if the opponent has ways to ignore armor.

For now I'm really excited for trying out lampads. I think they're risky models, but they have a very high payoff and I really like them on paper.

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7 minutes ago, Sagrit said:

Its hard to say what else useful actions can Asura do in Kirai crew... 

She gives you zombies for summoning.

One of the strongest things on her card is that she makes every zombie or other undead model hit quite hard.

She has an attack action which is quite a good debuff.

Don't worry, Asura does plenty useful for 8ss :). I'm absolutely sure that @whodares will agree.

 

And again, Asura is living, so another way to surround Kirai with nothing but living and undead models so you can't easily avoid malevolence.

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23 minutes ago, whodares said:

You also forgot Asura's markers can give a ton of TN 14 (or something like that) duels which is a great hand drain.

It pings one damage if im not mistaken and its a wp14 duel, so pretty difficult, pinging damage is always great.

 

Asura does so many things its easy to forget stuff.

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I'm playing Asura since last GenCon. And she's really good in Boo! Seamus list, with McM and sometimes with Reva. And even with them she usualy spend her activation for walking, placing Scheme marker or even takes Df stance. But i don't see how she fit Kirai. Kirai should improve her survivability because of risk of Ikirio, but in this case Asura must stay in 6" from master.

If you want to summon from zombies she must place Quarantine Zone in 6" from Kirai, so there are not too much 14Wp duels for enemies. Grasping Hands are good if you mostly hit Df, but it also lowers Wk which is a downside for you own Lures. Shikome is a hard hitter summon with Kirai and it choose to attack Wp or Df when enemy have an Adversary (and it will, because it's Kirai crew), so there is no need to spend AP to lower Df. Especially since lot of models in crew will have "+" from Adversary anyway. 

I'm not saying Asura is bad. I just don't see how she worth 8ss with Kirai. Maybe it's worth it with Supply Wagons because of 50mm base? I'm not sure...

One Flesh Construct will cost 2ss less and will provides you summoning anchor for the whole game. And hes also Undead, so have Ikirios protection. Two Night Terrors will also cost 2ss less and give you 4 summons and 2 Scheme markers because of Ectoplasm and possibly 2 more with Datsue Ba and Spirit Whispers. And they even can turn to Seishins  with Spirit Beacon (it will cost a card, so it's just an option)

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36 minutes ago, Sagrit said:

If you want to summon from zombies she must place Quarantine Zone in 6" from Kirai, so there are not too much 14Wp duels for enemies. Grasping Hands are good if you mostly hit Df, but it also lowers Wk which is a downside for you own Lures. Shikome is a hard hitter summon with Kirai and it choose to attack Wp or Df when enemy have an Adversary (and it will, because it's Kirai crew), so there is no need to spend AP to lower Df. Especially since lot of models in crew will have "+" from Adversary anyway. 

You could place the marker, force the duels, summon a zombie and then let the zombie walk closer to Kirai. 

The zombie can be used for multiple things:

  • blocking/engaging model to keep other, more important models safe
  • debuffing with Asura's attack
  • it's a moving summoning anchor

Asura also guarantees the summoning every turn, while other models such as Flesh Constructs can be targetted more easily.

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7 minutes ago, whodares said:

You could place the marker, force the duels, summon a zombie and then let the zombie walk closer to Kirai. 

There is a gap in activations between Asura and Zombie, where opponent safely one-shot it without triggering Malevolence.

Quote

Asura also guarantees the summoning every turn, while other models such as Flesh Constructs can be targetted more easily.

Yes, but only one summon. And you always have to activate Asura first before Kirai which means you loose benefit from first activation Summon-Sundering-Accomplice combo.

If we need Zombie per turn, it might be better to look at Emissary since he improves survivability for all those Incorporeal Spirits, makes great Kythera Shards and can summon non-master non-totem 6ss model on later turns. 

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@Sagrit Asura is also not a model you want to place far forward as she is very squishy. She does so much it is all a bit situational. If I really need her zombie then indeed the marker has to be closer to Kirai. I hired Asura with the emissary and datsu bah. They all summon stuff I can summon off and that doesn't dictate my activation order and positioning that much. Agreed, that is a list very focussed on overrunning the opponent with cheap models and summons. It will depend on the game. I have also played a different Kirai crew.

Imho if the opponent spends 1 ap killing a mindless zombie it is often worth it. And you never know he wiffs and waists more. Even then it'll drop a corpse marker that the crew can use.

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@Sagrit You are correct that initially you will only draw two cards from your summons off the desperate mercs (you can get three summons off them in T1) two stones back and 2 cards then the grave digger can follow up just behind any beaters etc. and scoop up more corpses when your crew kills stuff. It isn't guaranteed and suits certain pools more (reasonable model for guarded treasure). It is not an auto take (I was merely giving a variety of options) but in a crew that has pretty much no use for corpse markers it is a way of getting use out of them :) also two mercs T1 are two more activation's rather than the one usually from the night terror or flesh construct. 

Again it is situational and probably suits a Kirai crew that is really cycling through its summons :)

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12 hours ago, Cleezy said:

also two mercs T1 are two more activation's rather than the one usually from the night terror or flesh construct. 
 

Whilst I could see some advantages, this is a flawed argument. Saying you spend 8 stones on Mercs but it gives you 2 activations where as the 3 spent on night terror only gives you 1 seems to ignore you could have a second night terror for the same number of activations for cheaper ( Although the ss back could be seen as making it the same cost). 

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It looks like Scheme Markers VS Corpse Markers :) If you run Maniacal Laugh, or Gravedigger, or even Archie it seems like 2 Mercs are better. If you run Philip, then 2 Night Terrors looks better. 

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8 hours ago, Adran said:

Whilst I could see some advantages, this is a flawed argument. Saying you spend 8 stones on Mercs but it gives you 2 activations where as the 3 spent on night terror only gives you 1 seems to ignore you could have a second night terror for the same number of activations for cheaper ( Although the ss back could be seen as making it the same cost). 

It is flawed only when compared to a single night terror, the argument stands against the flesh construct. Obviously summoning from the mercs will replenish the stones/raise above the cache and provides the corpses for cards if running a gravedigger.

It is by no means the best it all goes to a players preference. I was merely suggesting options I have heard/seen to the OP :) 

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8 hours ago, Sagrit said:

It looks like Scheme Markers VS Corpse Markers :) If you run Maniacal Laugh, or Gravedigger, or even Archie it seems like 2 Mercs are better. If you run Philip, then 2 Night Terrors looks better. 

Desperate mercs can also drop your markers for Phil and the Nanny of course... but yes if you wanted to save stones by not hiring a gravedigger and/or paying the merc tax then you are probably better with night terrors or a flesh construct.

I am playing a tourney this weekend and Kirai may be coming out so I will let people know how it goes if I do

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On 8/10/2018 at 7:47 PM, Cleezy said:

I am playing a tourney this weekend and Kirai may be coming out so I will let people know how it goes if I do

That would be very useful, thank you :)

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So I didn't use Kirai in the tournament (I put it to a vote in my local meta chat group and they opted I played thunders). But I did get a game in with Kirai yesterday.

Pool was - Standard deployment, Ply for information, surround them (paired), dig their graves, take prisoner, undercover entourage and inescapable trap.

I used
Kirai (ectoplasm and spirit beacon)
Datsue Ba (spirit whispers and my little helper)
Philip and the Nanny (Onryo 0 upgrade and take back the night)
Chiaki (pull of the grave)
Dead doxie
2 night terrors
Lampad and a 6 cache.

I faced a Kaeris crew with Cassandra, Angelica, 2x gunsmiths, malifaux child, Carlos and the effigy.

My schemes were dig and undercover entourage on Kirai, my opponent took take prisoner on  Datsue Ba and undercover entourage on Cassandra.

Reasons for crew selection - Chiaki for conditional removal (I expected a lot of burning about etc. also potential to offensively remove southern charm), night terrors were my initial summon anchors, Doxie for Phil and the Nanny. Lampad was there to finish off anything hurt IF I had already scored dig that turn. Ectoplasm for scheme markers when killing the night terrors, Datsu to rotate taking Kirai's damage along with seishin and movement/seishin.

First turn worked out fine with me being about to get 2 Goryo up and some initial markers down, positionally these were in a strong position (threatening my opponent enough to have to deal with them but also two so hard to get rid of them instantly). These took a fair amount of AP from my opponent, one being paralysed, put down to one wound and ready to burn out. Because of the damage both had taken I summoned off them a hanged and goryo, providing scheme markers/seishin in the mean time. My main plan was just keep cycling out summons, with so many seishin popping up I managed to keep my summoning cheaper by sacking them.

Big turning point was Carlos bringing out Ikiryo, he killed the hanged then pushed out but couldn't escape her, due to my hand Ikiryo comfortably killed Carlos (ram trigger allowing me to cheat the RJ in on attack one and then attack two doing another set of severe. My goryo had dispatched one of the gun smiths. The game continued in that vein really, my summons cycling and steadily dispatched models in the crew. Kaeris was hacked down as Kirai managed to get adversary on her allowing 5 Goryo attacks to land.

It was a real battle for my opponent as a lot of the attacks would finish the summons off with burning but I would cycle them out before that had chance to happen. We called it on turn 5 when realistically nothing was going to change I had scored all 3 for dig, 3 of the 4 for ply and Kirai had a free route to my opponents deployment. My opponent got Cassandra into my corner and brought up southern charm leaving me to give up those 3 points and due to some poor positioning on my part got Angelica in to engage and take prisoner on Datsue (2 of the 3 as I had Chiaki there). I maybe could have taken Angelica out but after we tried Datsues disengage attempt we left it there to finish 9-6.

Not the most detailed but gives an overview of my plan, I prefer night terrors/desperate mercs over the flesh construct as you get some early activation control and although you still have the flesh construct for later turns if you don't have activation control it isn't going well. No grave digger in this game if I was to go the desperate merc route then it is likely the doxie would be dropped and/or the lampad. They are good and by all means it is easy enough to get more lampads from them but for me in that game I ended up just finishing the kill to score dig. Also I consistently had 10 models on the board each turn but turn activations was so much more through the cycling.

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I want to give this topic a new twist rather than starting a new topic.

 

I'm playing a game with Kirai tomorrow and I'm going to try out some different upgrades. What do you guys normally take on Kirai upgradewise (if any) and does anyone use swirling aether? It sounds like a great mobility tool, an 8+ inch place is rather nice indeed. Nevertheless it costs 2ss, so I'm not sure if it's worth it. You're also giving up a seishin summon and a 5 of masks to get it off.

Also does anyone have experience with the wave 5 upgrades?

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Usually it comes down to Unforgiven/Bloody shears (always one of those and in 90% of games I'm taking Unforgiven) and Spirit Beacon as staples. Then you have either Absorb Spirit (good upgrade if you're running datsue ba), Swirling Spirits (good upgrade if you want to play entourage on Kirai), Ectoplasm (tricky to use) or Maniacal laugh (for free activations and summoning battery). 

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15 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Usually it comes down to Unforgiven/Bloody shears (always one of those and in 90% of games I'm taking Unforgiven) and Spirit Beacon as staples. Then you have either Absorb Spirit (good upgrade if you're running datsue ba), Swirling Spirits (good upgrade if you want to play entourage on Kirai), Ectoplasm (tricky to use) or Maniacal laugh (for free activations and summoning battery). 

Why are you taking bloody shears? It seems so underwhelming.

 

Edit: Ok, forgot it had accomplice, that makes sense then in case you really need that.

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