The Jury

[The Governor-General]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

I honestly feel its the other way around. My Combat masters have a reasonable chance of succeeding without cheating. My summoning masters will almost never attempt a summon unless I know I can cheat to succeed.

So, you propose putting in maximum resources and AP into forcing a summoner to ditch 6 cards?

[Adran]

24 minutes ago, The Governor-General said:

So, you propose putting in maximum resources and AP into forcing a summoner to ditch 6 cards?

I don't think i would go that far, but one of the down sides to a summoner is their reliance on the hand, and so making them lose cards is more likely to hurt them than it would a combat master. I agree that 1 or 2 discards don't really hurt anyone (at least not that noticeably, card discard is always helpful), but the more cards you make someone discard, the harder it is for them to cheat the actions they want to succeed. 

[The Governor-General]

32 minutes ago, Adran said:

I don't think i would go that far, but one of the down sides to a summoner is their reliance on the hand, and so making them lose cards is more likely to hurt them than it would a combat master. I agree that 1 or 2 discards don't really hurt anyone (at least not that noticeably, card discard is always helpful), but the more cards you make someone discard, the harder it is for them to cheat the actions they want to succeed. 

So you agree that discarding 2 cards isn't enough to stop a summoner, but wouldn't go so far as to dedicate the resources necessary to make them lose all 6... So 4 cards?  Two AP from an Austringer, and presumably the Jury in range for insurance?

That's 14 stones and two activations in the backfield doing nothing except making sure that the summoner's hand is down to his two highest crows.

Honestly, you aren't really doing damage to that summoner until you take the last two cards.  Sure, the rest of his models won't be able to cheat, and any discard mechanic will contribute to degrading his crew's ability to achieve goals, but the ability to summon is the last thing he'll be willing to give up, and as long as he has control over what cards to lose, the cards he needs to summon will be the last cards he ditches. 

I don't think it's efficient to task a henchman and one of the best minions in the game with ALMOST, but not quite, neutering a summoner.  Both of those models have plenty else they can do.  I might try it if I noticed that the summoner had four or fewer cards in their hand before activating their summoner, and I happened to have the Jury in range of the Austringer, but that's about it.  Opportunistic attack with the right set up, but I'm not building a counter summoning engine out of 14 stones, especially when, as constituted, it's ineffective to the stated goal of stopping the summoning unless you add another Austringer for a total of 20 stones.

[Adran]

I agree its not worth building a counter summoning. That's never what I suggested. But the threat that you can make them discard cards is also useful. 

If I have an unactivated Austringer on the table, near Jury, then you know that I can make you discard 2 cards, so you can't afford to use mid level cards because you have to hold them to protect your higher cards (which combat masters might do, but they don't need the high cards to work). The Austringer may never make you discard a card, but you can't afford to not hold onto to those poorer cards until you have used your higher cards. 

Your opponent might get around that by summoning earlier but that can also be useful. 

What I am saying is that the ability to force discards is a stronger ability against models that have TNs (or need certain triggers) than against models that don't. As such The Austringer/ Jury combination will have more strength against a summoner than against a combat master. Even if you never actually make them discard a card that they could have summoned with. 

 

[The Governor-General]

36 minutes ago, Adran said:

I agree its not worth building a counter summoning... What I am saying is that the ability to force discards is a stronger ability against models that have TNs (or need certain triggers) than against models that don't. As such The Austringer/ Jury combination will have more strength against a summoner than against a combat master. Even if you never actually make them discard a card that they could have summoned with. 

 

I totally agree with this.  I absolutely agree that the threat of discarding is more effective against a summoner, for sure, because they need very specific cards to function.  However, I would never build an engine to actually do it, except opportunistically. 

I think in terms of actually causing discards, it may be more effective against a combat master (or beater hench/enforcer) who tends to activate later in the turn with fewer cards, but agree that the threat itself is less crucial, since beaters don't always need high cards to function.

It's a case of the threat being more effective against a summoner, but more resource intensive to actually apply that threat, versus being less threatening against a combat character, but easier and more reasonable to apply.

[hydranixx]

Has anyone tried the Austringer/Jury combo to murder their hand, but then followed that up with Executioner(s) threatening their Assassination trigger? That seems like it'd decimate anyone's hand and soulstones in speedy fashion. Summoners need their stones too, not just cards. If they choose to summon anyway, they're risking outright losing actual models to Assassination triggers too.

The other thing I'm interested in is partnering the Jury with Convict Gunslinger(s). If Jury's aura work for non-Guild models that is? Assuming it does: Gunslingers don't have to pay for Rapid Fire like Santiago so they're free to take DTTG instead, and they can also shoot in melee so are more reliable at getting that one 'god turn' in. Doubtless someone has already thought of it / tried it....  but Rapid Firing 3/4/5 attacks on a platform that has access to 'free' s to trigger more attacks has a certain appeal to me. I think that automatic Sh 6 with built in  makes it very scary towards the end of a turn once hands are depleted (Austringer+Jury+Executioner, maybe?); you might need a couple cards to discard but it's not unrealistic to expect 4 or 5 or even 6 hits from Rapid Firing once. The only issue is helping him get into position, perhaps Nimble from McCabe or extra AP from Nelly would be helpful here. 

Any thoughts on Gunslingers+Jury?

[Ludvig]

@hydranixx

It's any friendly so that could turn out pretty effective. It just needs something to move the gunslinger into place.

[Baratta]

4 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Has anyone tried the Austringer/Jury combo to murder their hand, but then followed that up with Executioner(s) threatening their Assassination trigger? That seems like it'd decimate anyone's hand and soulstones in speedy fashion. Summoners need their stones too, not just cards. If they choose to summon anyway, they're risking outright losing actual models to Assassination triggers too.

The other thing I'm interested in is partnering the Jury with Convict Gunslinger(s). If Jury's aura work for non-Guild models that is? Assuming it does: Gunslingers don't have to pay for Rapid Fire like Santiago so they're free to take DTTG instead, and they can also shoot in melee so are more reliable at getting that one 'god turn' in. Doubtless someone has already thought of it / tried it....  but Rapid Firing 3/4/5 attacks on a platform that has access to 'free' s to trigger more attacks has a certain appeal to me. I think that automatic Sh 6 with built in  makes it very scary towards the end of a turn once hands are depleted (Austringer+Jury+Executioner, maybe?); you might need a couple cards to discard but it's not unrealistic to expect 4 or 5 or even 6 hits from Rapid Firing once. The only issue is helping him get into position, perhaps Nimble from McCabe or extra AP from Nelly would be helpful here. 

Any thoughts on Gunslingers+Jury?

I have. Played agains Zipp and opponent conceded turn 2 when executioner killed him and he had 1SS and  1 card in hand. Nellie had made the executioner fast and he charged in so he had 3 AP. I had 2 high cards for the trigger (11-12 crows) first attack I didnt cheat so he used 1 SS to prevent 2 dmg out of 5 dmg, second attack I cheated the 11 of crows only for the trigger I had already hit,  he discarded 2SS. So he only had 1SS and 1 card for the third attack and I cheated the 12 for the trigger.

Not something that will happend again I think, he learned his lesson and didnt think Executioner would killed him (I was lucky having the 2 cards for the trigger).

[AK1979]

I used a list with

Lucius and his servant
Jury
Executioner
Thrall
double austringer 
Queller

Lucius got the card drawing upgrade

So I can afford to discard some cards for Jury / austringer combo

When the opponent's hand is depleted I will send the Thrall and Executioner into the enemy crew.

The Thrall can give me some card draws and ideally the executioner goes in last  with some crows in hand.

It can work well against some crews , you just need to resist the card discard combos against some  masters 

 

 

 

[4thstringer]

2 hours ago, Baratta said:

I have. Played agains Zipp and opponent conceded turn 2 when executioner killed him and he had 1SS and  1 card in hand. Nellie had made the executioner fast and he charged in so he had 3 AP. I had 2 high cards for the trigger (11-12 crows) first attack I didnt cheat so he used 1 SS to prevent 2 dmg out of 5 dmg, second attack I cheated the 11 of crows only for the trigger I had already hit,  he discarded 2SS. So he only had 1SS and 1 card for the third attack and I cheated the 12 for the trigger.

Not something that will happend again I think, he learned his lesson and didnt think Executioner would killed him (I was lucky having the 2 cards for the trigger).

I've had a few trigger dependent masters regret getting into charge range of the executioner.  

[hydranixx]

Well, it sounds like it works every bit as well as I hoped!

Executioners definitely appeal to me; anything that ignores Df triggers is welcome in my Arcanist/Thunders drenched meta. 

If I ever pick up Guild, I look forward to a few 'oops there goes your master' moments, myself.