Auras and "other model" sillyness.

[Ludvig]

So. The tagged abilities of Guild sergeants, Sebastian and McMourning have a quirky little feature. According to the rules as written these models only need to be on the table together to trigger each others mirrored abilities by being in their own aura. This seems like an oversight to me, but I'm not sure. Would there be any interest in an errata disguised as an FAQ entry to clarify these interactions (either on the models themselves or as a general rule for similar wordings).

The offenders read like this:

Quote

Guard sergeant - crossroads p. 29

"Frightening authority: Other friendly Guardsman models within 6 of one or more models with this ability gain  to all Wp duels."

Lead the patrol has similar wording. So any guild sergeant activating checks the other sergeants ability and concludes that he is within the aura of another models with the aura (himself).

 

Quote

McMourning & Sebastian - pages 124 & 127 Malifaux M2E

Catalyst: Other models with the Poison Condition which begin their Activation withing 8 of one or more models with this Ability immediately suffer 1 damage from the Poison Condition and then lower their Poison Conditition value by 1.

 Basically it goes like this: McMourning activates. He checks and notices that since Sebastian has the ability Catalyst and the good dr just activated within one or more models with that ability (he measures his own catalyst aura for this) he happily takes a point of damage and pushes from his upgrade. 

 

I guess this goes out specifically to @Aaron but others should feel free to discuss this if you don't agree with me.

[solkan]

2 minutes ago, Artiee said:

Maybe I don't understand what your referring.
Are you Saying a Guild sergeant activates, he should not be effected by another Guild sergeant Aura?

No, the complaint is that the wording is missing a word, that the phrase "one or more models" should be "one or more other models".

Because the point is that the model is effectively benefiting from -it's own aura- if another model with the ability exists anywhere on the table.

[Ludvig]

It's a really silly interaction that can't have been intended.

[Artiee]

Maybe I don't understand what your referring.
Are you Saying a Guild sergeant activates, he should not be effected by another Guild sergeant Aura?

[Artiee]

Thank you solkan.   I now understand where he is coming from.  

[Bakunin]

59 minutes ago, solkan said:

No, the complaint is that the wording is missing a word, that the phrase "one or more models" should be "one or more other models".

Because the point is that the model is effectively benefiting from -it's own aura- if another model with the ability exists anywhere on the table.

I'm not sure that wording change would work. I think the fix would be to add a line saying that this ability does not stack with itself and simply word it as 'other friendly models within 6 get whatever'.

[Caiti-Erin]

I've just started painting my mcmourning set. I'm curious now, how do you play it this rule? As if it said other or as written and benefitting from own aura?

[Ludvig]

2 hours ago, Caiti-Erin said:

I've just started painting my mcmourning set. I'm curious now, how do you play it this rule? As if it said other or as written and benefitting from own aura?

Are you asking me or people in general? I've never had anyone try to pull that advantage so I have never had to do a ruling on it but it came up recently in a discussion about guild sergeants were people didn't seem to mind since those models are so lowly rated either way.

I'm just about to start playing McMourning myself and I wouldn't want this to cause a fuss. Even if I play the way I think it's intended a devious opponent could force me to suffer poison damage when it'd bad for me or I could get reported for cheating after a tournament game. I'd rather not need to clarify this interaction before each new game or have to start writing my own faq/errata for my tournaments.

[Bakunin]

Auras typically benefit the model they're centered on, but the auras in question state they only work on other models. If it was intended and is working correctly for the issue Ludvig pointed out to function, why add the 'other models' text? If Guild Sergeants can benefit from their aura if anoher one is anywhere on the table, why not write it that way?

I'm fairly confident that any TO in any location will agree that the abilities in question work on any models in the aura other than the model creating it, having another model with the ability somewhere does not allow the tirst model to benefit from its own auras. The weird text about one or more models with this ability is to prevent the abilities from stacking if multiple auras overlap.

[Caiti-Erin]

On 09/02/2017 at 11:47 AM, Ludvig said:

Are you asking me or people in general? I've never had anyone try to pull that advantage so I have never had to do a ruling on it but it came up recently in a discussion about guild sergeants were people didn't seem to mind since those models are so lowly rated either way.

I'm just about to start playing McMourning myself and I wouldn't want this to cause a fuss. Even if I play the way I think it's intended a devious opponent could force me to suffer poison damage when it'd bad for me or I could get reported for cheating after a tournament game. I'd rather not need to clarify this interaction before each new game or have to start writing my own faq/errata for my tournaments.

I meant people in general. 

Better phrasing would have been "How is this team best played?"

[Paddywhack]

On 2/8/2017 at 7:13 AM, Ludvig said:

 Basically it goes like this: McMourning activates. He checks and notices that since Sebastian has the ability Catalyst and the good dr just activated within one or more models with that ability (he measures his own catalyst aura for this) he happily takes a point of damage and pushes from his upgrade. 

Not sure what the problem is? I've always read this as a valid tactic for McMourning. It is one of the things that makes him so fast and hard to pin down (if you keep Sebastian nearby that is - not always easy). 

Just because a model can't be affected by its won aura doesn't mean it isn't affected by another model's same named aura. Nothing in the rules support that. 

[Bakunin]

35 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Not sure what the problem is? I've always read this as a valid tactic for McMourning. It is one of the things that makes him so fast and hard to pin down (if you keep Sebastian nearby that is - not always easy). 

Just because a model can't be affected by its won aura doesn't mean it isn't affected by another model's same named aura. Nothing in the rules support that. 

The problem isn't that McMourning is using Sebastian's aura, it's that the way the ability is written it can be argued to work when Sebastian is across the board.

So McMourning activates with Sebastian 20" away. Sebastian's Catalyst states that other models which activate within 8 of one or more models are affected by the aura. McMourning is a different model from Sebastian, so the first restriction is passed. He's not within 8" of Sebastian, but that's not what Catalyst checks for. It checks to see if the model is within 8" of one or more models with Catalyst, which McMourning has so he's always within 8" of a Catalyst model. 

Since Catalyst and the other auras pointed out don't check if models are within aura range of the model that has it, but rather if they're in range of any model with that aura things go funny.