The January Errata and the Bayou

[Macumazahn]

The problem I see with the Lenny change with Ophelia is that the combo was very powerful, and made Ophelia the killing machine she's supossed to be. Now she needs quite the amount of resources to actually be that way. If that's the case, why use her at all when you can take the likes of Somer or Wong? They can do the same damage with very little resources, maybe a little less damage? But not much less, and they can do much, much more for their crews and strategies than Ophelia can.

I know this was the case before, to some extent, but at least, thanks to Lenny, she was a massive threat and a relatively resilient one at that.

And making Lenny keep up with the crew was never a problem, I don't think he limits the mobility of Ophelia at all.

[Math Mathonwy]

7 hours ago, Macumazahn said:

And making Lenny keep up with the crew was never a problem, I don't think he limits the mobility of Ophelia at all.

IME with Lenny, if your opponent knows what they are doing, you get one less shot out of Ophelia and you need to use her (0) on him due to positioning. YMMV.

Also, if you build your list in such a way that the rest of your dudes aren't hunting for Rams, that will help quite a bit as well. Finally, I do get Rams pretty often from the deck for Ophelia due to how many cards she is flipping.

Out of interest - how many of you have even tried using Ophelia without Lenny for a few games recently?

[Omenbringer]

On 12/23/2016 at 0:56 PM, Dumb Luck said:

This is all fine though - it is certainly better than playing Gremlins in V1! 

I take some offense to that, Gremlin's in V1 were plenty competitive...many (in your neck of the woods specifically) said overly so (not that I agreed, especially if the loop holes were omitted from the discussion). It is a bit of an esoteric discussion though as there aren't many on here who can intelligently speak about the gremlin old days (I membah though).

[Dumb Luck]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

IME with Lenny, if your opponent knows what they are doing, you get one less shot out of Ophelia and you need to use her (0) on him due to positioning. YMMV.

Also, if you build your list in such a way that the rest of your dudes aren't hunting for Rams, that will help quite a bit as well. Finally, I do get Rams pretty often from the deck for Ophelia due to how many cards she is flipping.

Out of interest - how many of you have even tried using Ophelia without Lenny for a few games recently?

Nah. I have Zipp to test more and Wong/Somer are as solid as ever.

10 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

I take some offense to that, Gremlin's in V1 were plenty competitive...many (in your neck of the woods specifically) said overly so (not that I agreed, especially if the loop holes were omitted from the discussion). It is a bit of an esoteric discussion though as there aren't many on here who can intelligently speak about the gremlin old days (I membah though).

Craig and Ian really rated them, but that was about the extent of it. And comparatively, it was far harder back then due to fewer options and our bad match ups.

But old hat, not really relevant.

[Omenbringer]

I often thought that the complaints about v1 Gremlins had far more to do with the players than the models. They were definitely a lot harder to run well back then.

Always enjoy a stroll down nostalgia lane... got to stop eating these damn memba' berries.

[James Dyson]

4 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

IME with Lenny, if your opponent knows what they are doing, you get one less shot out of Ophelia and you need to use her (0) on him due to positioning. YMMV.

Also, if you build your list in such a way that the rest of your dudes aren't hunting for Rams, that will help quite a bit as well. Finally, I do get Rams pretty often from the deck for Ophelia due to how many cards she is flipping.

Out of interest - how many of you have even tried using Ophelia without Lenny for a few games recently?

I've been giving her a go recently with a set up akin to a Gremlin-Viktorias slingshot with Francois. 

3x Young LaCroix, 3x Stuffed Piglets, Francois, Trixie and then flavor to taste.  With the activation control that her totems give on top of the piglets, I've been able to maneuver her and Francois into position for an end-of-turn-1, Top-of-turn-2 alpha strike.  I find that when I charge her in with 'Eyes closed' up (so that she only has the target she's engaged with as a legal choice for my opponent), between my control hand and triple +'s to hit I can find a high enough ram to get Thinkin' luck off, but your mileage may vary.  

[Clockwork_Fish]

While I'm surprised that Mah didn't get any changes in the errata, the changes to Lucius might serve as a blueprint for what should probably be done with her.  They are (or were in Lucius' case) resource intensive masters with too little reward for the cost.  Most of what was done to Lucius involved reducing the cost of his various abilities and loosening the restrictions on who was affected by them.

[Tiny]

Surprised to not see any mention of ulix with the lenny cuddles, he was basically auto include in my ulix crew because all ulix's triggers and casts require the ram (offensive anyway, shot in the rear, feeding frenzy, feeding time) and obviously the damage reduction when summoning a warpig is still a thing, but i suppose the bright side is i have 10 ss to play with now in my ulix crew or i can still take him as a minor summoner, although unlikely.

Overall big fan of the n3rfs, roosters were too good. I don't think lenny was the right model to n3rf but keen to see what changes it brings to crews. Hopefully next we see a change to some of the underperforming avoided gremlins such as bushwackers, moonshinobi, survivors etc

[cfrag]

7 hours ago, Tiny said:

Surprised to not see any mention of ulix with the lenny cuddles, he was basically auto include in my ulix crew because all ulix's triggers and casts require the ram (offensive anyway, shot in the rear, feeding frenzy, feeding time) and obviously the damage reduction when summoning a warpig is still a thing, but i suppose the bright side is i have 10 ss to play with now in my ulix crew or i can still take him as a minor summoner, although unlikely.

Overall big fan of the n3rfs, roosters were too good. I don't think lenny was the right model to n3rf but keen to see what changes it brings to crews. Hopefully next we see a change to some of the underperforming avoided gremlins such as bushwackers, moonshinobi, survivors etc

I didn't even remember Ulix would also be affected by it because I never played Lenny with Ulix. My Ulix lists don't usually have 9SS to spare on it. I'd rather have 3 extra SS for the suit when I really need it, with all the versatility a SS has (extra card draw, positive flips, etc) than another 40mm base clumped up with ulix, 3 markers and 2 50mm pigs around.

 

My biggest hurdle playing Ulix was always getting the whole positioning and activation order right.

[Omenbringer]

10 hours ago, Tiny said:

Surprised to not see any mention of ulix with the lenny cuddles, he was basically auto include in my ulix crew because all ulix's triggers and casts require the ram (offensive anyway, shot in the rear, feeding frenzy, feeding time) and obviously the damage reduction when summoning a warpig is still a thing, but i suppose the bright side is i have 10 ss to play with now in my ulix crew or i can still take him as a minor summoner, although unlikely.

You can also use him for additional Piglet Summoning if you attach his upgrade. Wasn't really a fan of Lenny in Ulix lists so don't miss the auto- . Lenny losing the ability to provide that to Masters likely has more to do with Thinking Luck than anything else. The community likely would have had less issues if Som'er and Ophelia had retained Dumb Luck instead.

Quote

 Hopefully next we see a change to some of the underperforming avoided gremlins such as bushwackers, moonshinobi, survivors etc

I don't think Bushwhackers are that bad only a SS over costed. We pay a premium for Playin' Possum which is increasingly a sieve defense (i.e. one which is easy to get around or ignore completely).

Moon Shinobi need either a way to self heal, a method of gaining their own modifiers, or perhaps a damage modifier based on the enemies Poison Condition value. As written currently they just don't perform for their cost.

I actually like where Survivors are currently, however I think the issue with them has more to do with Sparks than anything else. Sparks just doesn't really do anything other than buff a single Construct each turn (somewhat decent with the Pigapult but just adds expense to an already expensive combination). If he received an upgrade that allowed him to summon Survivors similar to Som'er's Get Your Bro (i.e. need a Bayou Gremlin to summon a Survivor) or a Mechanized Porkchop, then the Survivors (and Mechanized Porkchop for that matter) would seem like less of a "meh" addition.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

I am just glad they didn't go after the Slop Haulers. Too many people don't understand that their healing is what makes our faction really function.

[Dogmantra]

37 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

I actually like where Survivors are currently, however I think the issue with them has more to do with Sparks than anything else. Sparks just doesn't really do anything other than buff a single Construct each turn (somewhat decent with the Pigapult but just adds expense to an already expensive combination). If he received an upgrade that allowed him to summon Survivors similar to Som'er's Get Your Bro (i.e. need a Bayou Gremlin to summon a Survivor) or a Mechanized Porkchop, then the Survivors (and Mechanized Porkchop for that matter) would seem like less of a "meh" addition.

I think one of the things that doesn't help Sparks/Construct Synergy in general is that nearly all the constructs in faction are also Pigs or Gremlins, and sure Fast is a bit harder to get on them, but you have access to way more buffs & synergies as a Gremlin or Pig that it sort of feels like a waste to go after construct synergies when you can do more with Gremlin or Pig synergies.

[Clockwork_Fish]

1 hour ago, Dogmantra said:

I think one of the things that doesn't help Sparks/Construct Synergy in general is that nearly all the constructs in faction are also Pigs or Gremlins, and sure Fast is a bit harder to get on them, but you have access to way more buffs & synergies as a Gremlin or Pig that it sort of feels like a waste to go after construct synergies when you can do more with Gremlin or Pig synergies.

I use Sparks with Mei Feng (and only Mei Feng so far) and he does quite well, but you need to find a use for Packed with Explosives.  If you're just using him for his (0) actions, then he's a waste of 7 points.

[Math Mathonwy]

Re: Sparks I would like to note that his Aura can be absolutely devastating, though it is a bit hit or miss depending on the opposition (and when it's a hit, it does paint a pretty hefty target on poor old Sparks).

As for Bushwhackers, my biggest point of contention about them is their anti-synergy with their thematic Master. Even if they were 5SS, you still wouldn't take them with Mah, which is really a shame. They also used to have a great stat line but now it's kinda average.

[Dogmantra]

4 hours ago, Clockwork_Fish said:

I use Sparks with Mei Feng (and only Mei Feng so far) and he does quite well, but you need to find a use for Packed with Explosives.  If you're just using him for his (0) actions, then he's a waste of 7 points.

Oh yeah I think he's a great addition to a Mei Feng crew, I'm just not personally so keen on him in Gremlins.

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Re: Sparks I would like to note that his Aura can be absolutely devastating, though it is a bit hit or miss depending on the opposition (and when it's a hit, it does paint a pretty hefty target on poor old Sparks)

Having been on the receiving end of this it makes me so incredibly thankful that Slop Hauler healing does not target the models, but it was still horrid.

[Omenbringer]

42 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

Oh yeah I think he's a great addition to a Mei Feng crew, I'm just not personally so keen on him in Gremlins.

I agree it is unfortunate that the "gremlin" offering for Shifting Loyalties ends up feeling more like a Mei Feng offering.

[Clockwork_Fish]

On 2016-12-27 at 4:51 PM, Omenbringer said:

I agree it is unfortunate that the "gremlin" offering for Shifting Loyalties ends up feeling more like a Mei Feng offering.

At least Porkchop is solid.  A part of me wonders if the idea for Sparks wasn't born of some proto-idea for Zipp that didn't quite mesh together properly for what the Sky Pirates eventually became.

[Runeman]

I agree it would have been nice if they had taken the chance to also do something to the Bushwackers, at least change them so they only take one damage for using their out of activation shot.

It also seems kind of arbitrary that Ophelia was hit most of all. I haven't seen her mentioned as a high tier master, but my own experience is probably not enough to make a good call on her relative position. It is good to free her up a bit, as Lenny would be a crutch for beginners like me, but I think she should get a new personal upgrade to at least allow her to not be clearly inferior to some other masters, I'm thinking an upgrade that can be discarded to allow her to take another (0), that would make her Kin synergy shine through more methinks.

[orkdork]

My .02 after a month:

I primarily play Mah, never with Lenny, though I understand why others would (I'm happy to stone for Out for Blood). I played 2-3 roosters depending on the "competitiveness" of the game, i.e. 3 roosters in later rounds against players I know to be good.

Roosters were arguably the very best 6ss model in the game before, so I totally support taking them down a peg, but without the 3rd AP, they simply don't make the cut. Even in my Mah crew, where they can get big melee attack buffs, I'm down to one rooster, who is pretty clearly the least important model in my crew now. I keep him because I love the model.

[Joel]

Erm, I seem to rate sparks a bit more highly than others here.  I wonder where I am going wrong?

[Math Mathonwy]

14 hours ago, Joel said:

Erm, I seem to rate sparks a bit more highly than others here.  I wonder where I am going wrong?

If you can get his Aura to work, I think that he is fantastic. If his Aura isn't of use, then he pales a bit in comparison with our other 7-Stone options. His buffs are neat but I don't think they make him worth the Stones alone. So I'm guessing that you're going right rather than wrong.

[Joel]

I see his (0) actions as multi-layered in my crews.  Making a construct fast is a good addition, but making anything into a construct first can be even better - it allows Earl to heal wounds on that model for example and also offer them a built in suit.  Being able to do this to any model in my crew has been golden on top of fast and his aura.  Coupled with an iron skeeter (who can drag him along and offer him fast in return) he makes a great scheme runner who's harder to shift than most due to armour and soulstone use.

looked at on paper, he's nothing special - but the same goes for ronin and you probably all know my views on them!

[Sordid Strumpet]

I've been enjoying Sparks a lot. He can hold the Wp Aura (and sometimes he gets quality mash liquor too), and then sit in the middle scoring me show of force and giving me a 4AP glowy Burt that chops any and all threats into tiny little pieces. 

Sitting in the middle scoring show of force also means his aura comes into play nicely. He's expensive, sure, but I've found him absolutely worth it. Burt also loves charging when the mechanized porkchop is Nearby. Dirty Cheater REALLY comes into its own when you have 4 AP to play with...

With Som'er, you can have so many annoying Gremlins hopping about keeping Burt alive, it feels almost OP to play him

[Math Mathonwy]

1 minute ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

I've been enjoying Sparks a lot. He can hold the Wp Aura

Wp Aura?

[Sordid Strumpet]

 

1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Wp Aura?

Got liquid bravery and quality mash liquor mixed up horribly. All those boozy things are called the same... He just holds quality mash liquor  I swear there was a Wp buff somewhere that doesn't have to be on a leader. 

My experience comes mostly from playing Som'er to death last year and taking Sparks in every single game. Things are a bit hazy because I've been bitten by the Guildball bug