Damage from the Red Joker

[Stark]

Hey folks! We have an issue. Two examples:

1. We have a red Joker for damage flip and rams for trigger:
(1) Modified Peacebringer (Sh 6 / Rst: Df / Rg: 12): Target suffers 2/3/4 damage. 
[Rams] Critical Strike: When damaging the target, this Attack deals +1 damage for each [Rams] in the final duel total.

What damage will be inflicted? 4+1 + 2+1 =8 or 4+2 +1 =7 . We all agreed that 7. 

2. But then the red Joker for model whith burning condition with attack:

(1) Huntin’ Tools (Ml 6R / Rst: Df / Rg: 1): Target suffers 2/3/4 damage. If the target has the Burning Condition, it suffers +2 damage.

And the same question 8 or 10 damage? My comrades and I telling that 8, because of the wording in rule book: "The Red Joker always deals an amount of damage equal to the Severe plus the Weak damage." The keyword EQUAL, in other words we have damage model: Red Joker damage = (severe+weak)+%_ability/trigger/smth-name_%. In this particular example (4+2)+2=8.

But two guys didn't accepted that clear wording in rb, and insist that it will be: Red Joker damage = (severe+%_ability/trigger/smth-name_%)+(weak+%_ability/trigger/smth-name_%), so (4+2)+(2+2)=10. Their main sentence that there is no particular indication in the rb for our rights, and the words: "If the target has the Burning Condition, it suffers +2 damage." turning damage line 2/3/4 -->  4/5/6. So the damage will be 10. P.S.almost forgot, they appeal to the difference between the two examples of attacks given above: "this Attack deals +1 damage" and "it suffers +2 damage".

We need your help to resolve our dispute.

[Adran]

Critical strike does not change the damage profile, it deals a total of +1 extra damage for each ram. 

Likewise hunting tools doesn't got to a 4/5/6/ it is (2/3/4) +2 

If they wanted it to change the damage profile then they would write a new profile, as they do for Dumb luck, or the Judges anti undead attack. 

The red Joker does damage equal to weak plus severe. for hunting tools the weak plus severe is 6. the attack then does 2 extra damage if the target is burning, for a final total of 8. 

 

[mythicFOX]

23 minutes ago, supaplex said:

Then why there is a difference between wordings in Hunting tools and Fangs and Claws of Hoarcat pride?

(1) Huntin’ Tools (Ml 6R / Rst: Df / Rg: 1): Target suffers 2/3/4 damage. If the target has the Burning Condition, it suffers +2 damage.

(1) Fangs and Claws (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: 1): Target suffers 2/3/4 damage. This Attack deals +1 damage if this model has 3 or more Wounds remaining.

 

This comes up a lot.  It's important to understand when reading the rules that variations in wording do not imply differences in effect. 

IE just because two abilities are worded differently does not automatically mean they can't do the same thing.

 

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, supaplex said:

Then why there is a difference between wordings in Hunting tools and Fangs and Claws of Hoarcat pride?

(1) Huntin’ Tools (Ml 6R / Rst: Df / Rg: 1): Target suffers 2/3/4 damage. If the target has the Burning Condition, it suffers +2 damage.

(1) Fangs and Claws (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: 1): Target suffers 2/3/4 damage. This Attack deals +1 damage if this model has 3 or more Wounds remaining.

 

Same reason there's a difference in wording between attacks that say "This attack action gains " and "This attack action gains  to the attack". Editors aren't all on the same page or they didn't think it would be an issue. Unless you can cite something from the rulebook that says "deal" means something different than "suffer" then they're functionally the same thing.

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, supaplex said:

Then why there is a difference between wordings in Hunting tools and Fangs and Claws of Hoarcat pride?

(1) Huntin’ Tools (Ml 6R / Rst: Df / Rg: 1): Target suffers 2/3/4 damage. If the target has the Burning Condition, it suffers +2 damage.

(1) Fangs and Claws (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: 1): Target suffers 2/3/4 damage. This Attack deals +1 damage if this model has 3 or more Wounds remaining.

 

I think in this case the wording choice is because of the model that the extra damage is conditional on. 

Because the hunting tools extra damage is talking about the target, they suffer damage. The Fangs and claws extra damage is due to the attackign model, so it deals. 

The attacking model deals damage and the defending model suffers damage.

[solkan]

That, and remember the rule in Damage and Wounds (Malifaux 2E, page 46 because the rules manual is hiding in the couch):

Quote

If damage is modified by a static value (such as the Armor Ability, or a Trigger), the final damage after the damage flip is modified.

Both

Quote

If the target has the Burning Condition, it suffers +2 damage.

and

Quote

This Attack deals +1 damage if this model has 3 or more Wounds remaining.

are examples of modifying the damage by a static value, just like Armor is:

Quote

Armor:  Reduce all damage suffered by this model by +1, to a minimum of 1.

In other words, you can have a pretty complicated and elaborate set of rules for adding or removing damage and still be "a static value".

[supaplex]

41 minutes ago, Adran said:

 

[Ergonomic Cat]

I think the key thing to remember is that the Red Joker doesn't deal weak and severe damage.  It deals an amount of damage equal to the total of the weak + severe.  Their argument assumes it deals weak damage, and deals severe damage.

That line of thought leads to things like "Red Joker flips trigger conditions twice" as well.