I just have a quick question about "when resolved" defense triggers, e.g. Return Fire.

[apes-ma]

Let's imagine I have Return Fire attached to Sue and he is on one wound. He is shot at by another model, and he gets a crow on the defense duel, but fails the duel which means he will be shot. The Return Fire ability says "after resolving this model may..." - does that mean after the duel resolves, and BEFORE the damage flip? Or after the whole attack action against the model has resolved? Will Sue get to shoot back before he gets killed by the attack action? Or does the resolution of a duel, in game terms, also include the damage flip?

[Adran]

After resolving triggers will happen after step 5, regardles of sucess or failure (Page 23 and page 26 ) It is after the damage flip has happened. (which happens in step 5)

Sue will be dead and removed before he gets to shoot back. (note there is extra text in after damaging timing that allows those to happen before the model is removed as dead. This is absent in the after resolving trigger timing)

[trikk]

I`d like to point out that after damaging trigger are delayed only if the target is killed. 

If Huggy kills the enemy model with damage, the enemy model`s trigger will not work (or I don`t know an instance it will) and Huggy heals 2 damage.

If Huggy doesn`t kill the enemy model its killed and removed from play before its trigger comes into play.

[solkan]

3 hours ago, Khyodee said:

But here is the million dollar question. What if it is Headhunter?

According to the March 2017 FAQ Question 52. A Head Marker can't be dropped until all Actions and Triggers are resolved. Headhunter states that a Head marker is placed before the model is removed, so Return Fire would get a chance to resolve before the model is removed. You could try and say that well a "killed" model can't declare triggers, but then Colette's Death Defy trigger wouldn't work, so they can't rule that either.

As a point of order, you seem to have conflated "declaring" triggers with "resolving" triggers. 

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I would go so far as to assume that the rules of timing don't work one way for Headhunter and another way for other Strategies.

Would you go so far as to assume that the rules for timing don't work one way for some triggers (everything but 'after damaging') and another way for other triggers ('after damaging')?  Or for that matter, separating triggers between 'resolve immediately' and 'resolve After Step Five'. 

Consider the following scenarios without the Head Hunter strategy:

- Model A attacks McTavish and declares an 'After damaging' trigger, McTavish declares his 'after resolving' trigger.  McTavish gets killed, doesn't get removed because of the pending 'after damaging' trigger, so McTavish's 'after resolving' trigger gets resolved.

- Model A attacks McTavish and doesn't declare a trigger, McTavish declares his 'after resolving trigger'.  McTavish gets killed and gets removed, McTavish's trigger doesn't resolve.

Add in the Head Hunter strategy, and it's the same sort of difference. 

- Model A attacks McTavish with Head Hunter in play.  McTavish declares his 'after resolving' trigger.  McTavish gets killed and doesn't get removed because his model is necessary to be in play to resolve Head Hunter. 

- Model A attacks McTavish with some other Strategy in play.  McTavish declares his 'after resolving' trigger.  McTavish gets killed and gets removed, McTavish's trigger doesn't resolve because nothing keeps him in play.

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Khyodee said:

But here is the million dollar question. What if it is Headhunter?

According to the March 2017 FAQ Question 52. A Head Marker can't be dropped until all Actions and Triggers are resolved. Headhunter states that a Head marker is placed before the model is removed, so Return Fire would get a chance to resolve before the model is removed. You could try and say that well a "killed" model can't declare triggers, but then Colette's Death Defy trigger wouldn't work, so they can't rule that either.

I would go so far as to assume that the rules of timing don't work one way for Headhunter and another way for other Strategies.

I don't think it makes a difference. 

At the point that you would remove the model, there will be no more triggers to resolve (because the return fire isn't going to be resolved), so you can drop the head and carry on. Head hunter doesn't change what will and won't be resolved, it just will happen after any moves etc have occurred. 

 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, MrDeathTrout said:

Related question

 

Say Huggy has 1 Wd left, attacks a model and declares Drain (an after damaging trigger that heals 2 damage), the defender declares a defensive trigger that does 1 damage.  I think the timing breaks down like this:

1) Huggy does damage to the defender.

2) Defenders trigger does damage to Huggy killing him.  Huggy is killed and would be immediately removed from the table, but is left to resolve his trigger.

3) Huggy heals 2 damage from his trigger.

4) Huggy is removed from the table.  He does have two wounds, but was reduced to 0 wounds and was killed.  Removing him from the table was not prevented by his trigger only delayed.

Does that sound correct?

The problem in your scenario is the "is killed but is left on the table to resolve his trigger".  There's no basis in the rules to support that claim that that trigger delays removing the dead model.

At best, Hungering Darkness is killed, removed from the table, and then his trigger gets resolved but does nothing because it tries to heal a model out of play.

[solkan]

8 hours ago, apes-ma said:

Let's imagine I have Return Fire attached to Sue and he is on one wound. He is shot at by another model, and he gets a crow on the defense duel, but fails the duel which means he will be shot. The Return Fire ability says "after resolving this model may..." - does that mean after the duel resolves, and BEFORE the damage flip? Or after the whole attack action against the model has resolved? Will Sue get to shoot back before he gets killed by the attack action? Or does the resolution of a duel, in game terms, also include the damage flip?

"After resolving" is one of the four special trigger conditions.  The definition is:

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* After resolving:  These effects happen after Step 5 regardless of who wins the duel.

So it's not a matter of what the resolution of a duel is, there's a fixed timing defined for that trigger.

The question "Will Sue get to shoot back before he gets killed by the attack action?" is a bit unclear because the timing of model death is a bit messy.  The only rules that call out delaying the removal of a model are "After damaging", effects that are triggered by a model's death have an implied or explicit 'before removing' clause.

So Sue gets killed, and then doesn't get to take the Sh action when his trigger is resolved.

Note the last two words of the ability:

"After resolving, this model may take an Sh Action against the Attacker, if able."

'if able'.  That ability isn't specifying anything to keep Sue in the game for that shot, or let Sue have the shot if there's a lack of range, line of sight, or other difficulties.

[solkan]

On November 18, 2016 at 11:53 AM, MrDeathTrout said:

@solkan you are right about delaying the removal, I see my mistake now.  I do think Huggy heals since after damage triggers are resolved "before the model is removed".  I assume this means before it is removed from the game since that is the language used when a model is killed.  I can see an argument that they mean before it is removed from the table in stead of from the game, but it doesn't make a lot of sense they would include a rule that means to remove a mode from the game, then perform a trigger, then remove from the table.

I'm pretty sure you've either missed the point, or you have the order of that last sentence backwards. 

Quote

Corrected Timing:

Say Huggy has 1 Wd left, attacks a model and declares Drain (an after damaging trigger that heals 2 damage), the defender declares a defensive trigger that does 1 damage.  I think the timing breaks down like this:

1) Huggy does damage to the defender.

2) Defenders trigger does damage to Huggy reducing him to 0 wounds.  Huggy is killed and would be immediately removed from the game, but needs to resolve his trigger "before it is removed".

This is the point where you have an assumption that's coloring how you think the rules work.  You don't have any rule telling you that Hungering Darkness is supposed to remain in the game because there's a trigger that has been declared by it.

There is a rule (along with a corresponding FAQ explaining it) which says to do that for 'After damaging' triggers for one side.

There isn't any corresponding general rule saying that that happens for all triggers.  And that particular trigger has no part of its effect which requires the model to be on the table.

So why do you insist that Hungering Darkness remains in play until after the trigger resolves?

Edit: Just to be clear about it, why would the dead model resolve its trigger when a model that had its activation ended doesn't?

We actually have more evidence that the moment Hungering Darkness dies, that trigger that it declared becomes irrelevant and doesn't resolve all all.  And the same would go for an attacker that managed to get itself killed while performing an action.

There are some effects, such as the Dead Doxy's Final Encore that have the words "before removing this model" implied in them.  That doesn't mean that every effect does.

[MrDeathTrout]

21 hours ago, trikk said:

I`d like to point out that after damaging trigger are delayed only if the target is killed. 

If Huggy kills the enemy model with damage, the enemy model`s trigger will not work (or I don`t know an instance it will) and Huggy heals 2 damage.

If Huggy doesn`t kill the enemy model its killed and removed from play before its trigger comes into play.

I believe this is correct.

[MrDeathTrout]

13 hours ago, solkan said:

I'm pretty sure you've either missed the point, or you have the order of that last sentence backwards. 

This is the point where you have an assumption that's coloring how you think the rules work.  You don't have any rule telling you that Hungering Darkness is supposed to remain in the game because there's a trigger that has been declared by it.

There is a rule (along with a corresponding FAQ explaining it) which says to do that for 'After damaging' triggers for one side.

There isn't any corresponding general rule saying that that happens for all triggers.  And that particular trigger has no part of its effect which requires the model to be on the table.

So why do you insist that Hungering Darkness remains in play until after the trigger resolves?

Edit: Just to be clear about it, why would the dead model resolve its trigger when a model that had its activation ended doesn't?

We actually have more evidence that the moment Hungering Darkness dies, that trigger that it declared becomes irrelevant and doesn't resolve all all.  And the same would go for an attacker that managed to get itself killed while performing an action.

There are some effects, such as the Dead Doxy's Final Encore that have the words "before removing this model" implied in them.  That doesn't mean that every effect does.

I don't follow all your logic here.  I think you are saying the same thing as trikk, and I agree with him.  I see the error in my logic now.

[Khyodee]

On 11/18/2016 at 3:09 AM, Adran said:

After resolving triggers will happen after step 5, regardles of sucess or failure (Page 23 and page 26 ) It is after the damage flip has happened. (which happens in step 5)

Sue will be dead and removed before he gets to shoot back. (note there is extra text in after damaging timing that allows those to happen before the model is removed as dead. This is absent in the after resolving trigger timing)

But here is the million dollar question. What if it is Headhunter?

According to the March 2017 FAQ Question 52. A Head Marker can't be dropped until all Actions and Triggers are resolved. Headhunter states that a Head marker is placed before the model is removed, so Return Fire would get a chance to resolve before the model is removed. You could try and say that well a "killed" model can't declare triggers, but then Colette's Death Defy trigger wouldn't work, so they can't rule that either.

I would go so far as to assume that the rules of timing don't work one way for Headhunter and another way for other Strategies.

[trikk]

5 hours ago, solkan said:

As a point of order, you seem to have conflated "declaring" triggers with "resolving" triggers. 

Would you go so far as to assume that the rules for timing don't work one way for some triggers (everything but 'after damaging') and another way for other triggers ('after damaging')?  Or for that matter, separating triggers between 'resolve immediately' and 'resolve After Step Five'. 

Consider the following scenarios without the Head Hunter strategy:

- Model A attacks McTavish and declares an 'After damaging' trigger, McTavish declares his 'after resolving' trigger.  McTavish gets killed, doesn't get removed because of the pending 'after damaging' trigger, so McTavish's 'after resolving' trigger gets resolved.

- Model A attacks McTavish and doesn't declare a trigger, McTavish declares his 'after resolving trigger'.  McTavish gets killed and gets removed, McTavish's trigger doesn't resolve.

Add in the Head Hunter strategy, and it's the same sort of difference. 

- Model A attacks McTavish with Head Hunter in play.  McTavish declares his 'after resolving' trigger.  McTavish gets killed and doesn't get removed because his model is necessary to be in play to resolve Head Hunter. 

- Model A attacks McTavish with some other Strategy in play.  McTavish declares his 'after resolving' trigger.  McTavish gets killed and gets removed, McTavish's trigger doesn't resolve because nothing keeps him in play.

I'd say removing the model is not the same as killing the model.

Teddy attacks Papa Loco, declares the push trigger (after damaging) and kills him. Papa Loco blows up in the initial location. Then he's pushed. Then Teddy pushes. Then you place corpse marker. Then you place head marker.

@solkan is that correct?

[solkan]

3 hours ago, trikk said:

I'd say removing the model is not the same as killing the model.

Teddy attacks Papa Loco, declares the push trigger (after damaging) and kills him. Papa Loco blows up in the initial location. Then he's pushed. Then Teddy pushes. Then you place corpse marker. Then you place head marker.

@solkan is that correct?

That sounds right.  Papa Loco is blowing up due to his ability triggered on being killed, and the 'After damaging' trigger is being resolved After Step Five so removing the model is delayed.

There's room for a philosophical argument concerning all of the 'before removing' events piling up at the end, but it seems more intuitive to place the corpse marker before the head marker.

[MrDeathTrout]

Related question

Quote

 

Triggers

•After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage.

 

 

Quote

 

Damage and Wounds

When a number of points of damage is taken by a model, it reduces its current Wounds by that amount. If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

 

Say Huggy has 1 Wd left, attacks a model and declares Drain (an after damaging trigger that heals 2 damage), the defender declares a defensive trigger that does 1 damage.  I think the timing breaks down like this:

1) Huggy does damage to the defender.

2) Defenders trigger does damage to Huggy killing him.  Huggy is killed and would be immediately removed from the table, but is left to resolve his trigger.

3) Huggy heals 2 damage from his trigger.

4) Huggy is removed from the table.  He does have two wounds, but was reduced to 0 wounds and was killed.  Removing him from the table was not prevented by his trigger only delayed.

Does that sound correct?

[MrDeathTrout]

@solkan you are right about delaying the removal, I see my mistake now.  I do think Huggy heals since after damage triggers are resolved "before the model is removed".  I assume this means before it is removed from the game since that is the language used when a model is killed.  I can see an argument that they mean before it is removed from the table in stead of from the game, but it doesn't make a lot of sense they would include a rule that means to remove a mode from the game, then perform a trigger, then remove from the table.

Corrected Timing:

Say Huggy has 1 Wd left, attacks a model and declares Drain (an after damaging trigger that heals 2 damage), the defender declares a defensive trigger that does 1 damage.  I think the timing breaks down like this:

1) Huggy does damage to the defender.

2) Defenders trigger does damage to Huggy reducing him to 0 wounds.  Huggy is killed and would be immediately removed from the game, but needs to resolve his trigger "before it is removed".

3) Huggy resolves his trigger and heals 2 damage.  He has not yet been "removed from the game".

4) Huggy is removed from the game.  He does have 2 wounds, but was reduced to 0 wounds and was killed.  Removing him from the game was not prevented, just delayed long enough to perform his trigger.

I think that is correct, in this case there is has no meaningful effect on the game, but I'm sure there are some instances where it would.  

 

[MrDeathTrout]

I agree that Sue with Return Fire cannot use the trigger on the attack where they are killed for two reasons.

1) It is an After Resolving trigger which does NOT have the "These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage." language like After Damaging triggers so.  Sue is killed and removed from the game before triggers are resolved.

2) Even if this was an after damaging trigger that notice the "...if it was killed by the damage."  I interpret this to mean the trigger's timing is only changed if it was a trigger on the action that did the damage that killed Sue.