For Pandora's Player

[TeddyBear]

In next days i would try Pandora for first time, could you reccomend me some lists (perhaps Wp based - or not) to start please?

I don't like much sorrow or poltergeist..(i've never used them but they seems to me too weak) also candi(but i don't know) i was thinking of replacing them maybe with Teddy, Baby K., Widow Weaver, Insidious M. or even Bishop..

(i don't have yet emissary and changelings)

Probably my opponents will use Rasputina, Jack daw or Tara..

Any advices are welcome

Thanks

[GR1MMJOW 666]

I actually used the box set along with teddy in a tournament. If the strat is turf war or something that involves everyone going to one area the sorrows are so good. The look on the opponent's face when the realize what is going on if the havent seen them before is too funny. The sorrows do seem week, when i first played them i thought they were dumb. After using them though its awsome. They can move to base contact with an enemy model very easily. Get all 3 by your opponants models and everytime they fail a wp duel the opponent take s a damage from each one. 1 wp duel failing causes 3 damage right there, plus whatever your actually doing. When the enemy starts within one inch they lose a life too. The poltergeist uses paranormal activity by them to force more wp duels, pandora and candy force wp duels. Then have teddy and kade roam around. Teddy can move far with his movement along with kade moving him. The sorrows also only take half damage and pandora can choose to take it instead. Sorrows can paralyz the enemy and it might seem like ur wasting both your ap, your damage comes from them just sitting there by ur opponant though. Basically, play a game of turf war with them and youll see all the synergy.

[TeddyBear]

surely i may be wrong, but against powerful caster like Raspy, Jack or Nothing beast i think that sorrows don't have time to pass first turn

[GR1MMJOW 666]

I was looking at it more of you are playing the crew for first time and learning there boundries. If you are playing a friendly match ask if it can be turf war just to see how the crew naturally works. Then you can easily see how things work and what to add or take away in other games. I wouldnt just simply set aside sorrows or poltergeist because they look weak is what im getting at. I like to use waldgiest to germinate trees infront of crew as they move up, this protects them till they are in opponents face. The stiched together also have creepy fog as a zero action that provides cover and they cause wp duels along with reactivate when they reach one wound.

[hydranixx]

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

surely i may be wrong, but against powerful caster like Raspy, Jack or Nothing beast i think that sorrows don't have time to pass first turn

You're right, Sorrows are flimsy against Casters. Sorrows die very easily against Rasputina if you position them badly. That's the trick, keep them safe until you're ready to strike, then throw them into the scrap. Most Casters can't shoot them once they're engaged with models, Rasputina included.

Rasputina is probably the toughest match up since she also has blasts, and her crew is immune to horror duels. Even then, she's very slow and so are her models, with mostly Wk4-5. Your Sorrows, on the other hand, can cover over 8" with Misery Loves Company, then interact or cast it again to move to someone else. You can usually keep them out of sight until it's time to commit them. Putting them directly onto Rasputina is a good option since she can't cast very well in Melee, but failing that, even just throwing them into the scrum with her Ice Mirrors can be worthwhile to stop her casting through them.

Learning to work with Sorrows is important if you want to get the most out of Pandora's WP based damage. If you can get experience with playing them against Rasputina, you'll be excellent with them against anyone else. 

Most of the other options you mention actually work really well with Sorrows and I wouldn't recommend replacing Sorrows with them; I'd suggest playing them together. Try 2 Sorrows, Widow Weaver and an Insidious Madness. It's less than 25ss, so you still have plenty of room for other models like Teddy, Iggy or Bishop if you want them. But once that core of Sorrows, Widow Weaver and Madnesses sets up, they make any WP duel really hard for your opponent to pass, and really painful for them to fail. At that point in time, Pandora can then freely use Inflict to cook everything at an even rate or focus on individual models with Incite & Self Harm to fry one particular enemy at a time.

The Poltergeist can often still be a good option, but is not as important to Pandora as her Sorrows are. His aura is only 2" (doesn't reach as far as Misery's 6") and he doesn't have Misery Loves Company like the Sorrows do. This makes positioning even more crucial with him. If you mess up, people are well aware of how strong his aura is so tend to focus him down quickly. Since he's Ht3 with a 50mm base it's hard to hide him. He's often outshone by Primordial Magic, which is cheaper and easier to benefit from, but he does have a place in some games as well. 

[Wolfpact]

I'm a fan of using Dora as a nasty melee assassin, backed up with Sorrows.

 

That said? As far as her box goes I find Candy just.. doesn't do enough to justify her cost, and her healing about requires Depression to be remotely reliable - and I'd rather put that Depression on Baby Kade.

 

I only have the 'Geist for a totem, but I do not generally find much use for him either.

[GR1MMJOW 666]

Every game i use candy i end up trying to heal someone with her. She can take a extra casting action and her healing is so unreliable i have spent all 3 ap trying to heal before and failing them all?

I agree about poltergeist, unless he is in a good spot to put down paranorm activity marker when everyones grouped up for multiple turns. He has not done much for me besides that

[hydranixx]

The trick to using Candy is, don't make Candy a healbot. Why am I spending 9ss + upgrades for a short ranged, suit dependent 1/2/3 healing flip? Pretend she doesn't have a heal, and you'll get a lot more mileage from her.

In fact her spells actually all have low stats and low damage. So in fact, unless you're actively fishing for Wail's trigger, Alright Already, or using spells from upgrades, pretend she doesn't have any spells at all. 

Candy's real strengths are all on the front of the card. Her Manipulation 12 is decent. It's not a huge number, but it still works well enough with all the WP debuffs you're handing out. It's a big incentive to activate her last, almost as big of an incentive as her next two abilities:

Sweet and Sours combine to make your opponent's activation order incredibly delicate. Alright Already, Incite and Melancholy can be used to force or disallow activations to your advantage. That's essentially why she costs 9ss. You really, really want to be getting a lot of value from Sweet and Sours when you play Candy, or else you should probably just spend those 9ss elsewhere. Timing and positioning Candy where her auras are the most harmful to your opponent, for their last activation this turn, or for their first activation next turn, are really what makes or breaks her as a Henchman choice.

Casting Expert would be really useful if you wanted to actually cast her spells, but you should focus on her positioning more than anything else. Often the best option is to cast Wail (for the trigger) or Melancholy with your free spell cast, then either double walk or single walk into the target's engagement range and going defense stance. 

[GR1MMJOW 666]

Yeah i always start with other plans for her. When teddy gets to 1 wound or something i start to think oh, ill just heal him fast. I still havent learned to stop trying with her and wasting my ap lol. Guess im just use to my slop haulers always healing easily, not even close to the same case with candy

[TeddyBear]

thanks for all the advices, i will try as you told me, even if at this moment i imagine this situation:

 

1 i lose deployment (i don't know if it is write well) flip.

2 settle my pieces,

3 my opponent with raspy, put one or two december acolyte "from the shadow" after my deploy

4 goodbye sorrows

 

If we add also two silent one, one of each table side, it will be very hard cover sorrows in every case.

Maybe i could try to cover them with some scenic element and surround themselves with larger pieces .. to deny LoS?

[GR1MMJOW 666]

Game should be played with a lot of terrain so shouldnt be to hard. If you have issues or expand those 2 i mentioned before waldgiest and stiched can provide cover

[TeddyBear]

would you recommend me one competitive list please (also for a tournament) this weekend i try to use better both pandora and the dreamer...

first game (with pandora) was terrible my opponents disintegrate me!

I already read pullmyfinger article about her, and that there is to ways to play her: like a brawler style, bubble surrounds opponent with sorrow, insidious, iggy, poltergeist and with widow..

i don't understand the other style.. ranged control dora.

As Gr1mmjow advised me i'm convinced to try one list with most of her box pieces: maybe polter, 2 sorrow, 2 madness what else? however, any lists is always welcome!

[Commisarp]

I like:
Pandora with: The Box Opens, Fears Given Form & Aether Connection

2x Sorrows

Insidious Madness

Widow Weaver

Lust

Candy

Leaves you with five points which you can spend depending on schemes and strats, good options are:
Another Madness if you need a second scheme runner
Fugue State instead of Aether connection if you nee to shut down interaction

Best Behaviour and or Fears Given form on candy if you have body guard or simmilar. 

Primordial Magic

[LulleK]

The other play style is to use the Voices upgrade instead of Box Opens with Pandora to paralyze up to 3 enemy models each turn. With this upgrade she becomes a more independent control piece, so you can just pick an elite crew and don't have to worry about sorrows or Poltergeist at all. I feel that Sorrows are needed with Brawler Pandora but not with Voices Pandora at all. 

You can have a crew with the likes of Nekima, Doppelganger, Primordial Magic and Graves etc. or whatever you like!

Edit: It's good to know that you can use the ranged paralyze even if the target doesn't have a ranged attack. I'm very surprised that no one mentioned this play style at all in this thread since you don't like Sorrows.

[Puppeteer]

I've recently started playing Pandora and i love the ranged control aspect. My crew consists of -

-Pandora (voices, Wings of darkness, Fugue state)

-Primordial magic

-Nekima (Fears given form, Mimics blessing)

-Doppleganger (Retributions eye)

-Lilitu (Mimics Blessing)

-Sorrow

-Insidious Madness

-leaving 3ss + 3ss cache puts you at a pool of 6

 

Pandora uses incite to put mood swing on a model to control activation, that mixed with the voices crow trigger paralyzing models you can effectively force them to activate a paralyzed model giving yourself another activation before they can do anything. I've been pulling 2-3 models closer with Lilitu and Doppleganger (copying her lure) which were paralyzed by Pandora and the Sorrow, Nekima goes in and murders what she can, anything left activates and has to pass a DF14 duel or suffer 3 damage because of fears given form upgrade on Nekima (be careful though because your own models can be hurt by this too).  Fugue state also allows you to make enemy models insignificant so they will be unable to take interact actions. you can claim markers or drop schemes and your opponents models are either paralyzed, insignificant, or tied up in a fight. The insidious madness adds to the -WP and forces opponents to discard a card before cheating WP duels. This really helps to drain your opponents hand fast.

[Mutter]

Sounds like you'd benefit more from a second Madness in that list than from the Sorrow?

And that list basically begs for 2x "A Thousand Faces" ...

[TeddyBear]

Thanks all!! Very nice ideas!

But with voice upgrade would be wasted putting 2 sorrow and 2 insidious and going with incite after paralyze enemies?

i don't understand very well the differences: with the box opens up. pandora gains terryfing and another attack with two good triggers so more wp duel = more damage for misery..right?

voices instead paralyze enemies, but needs a crow and i see it well combined with depression, or maybe I'm wrong something?

[Commisarp]

Yes, there are two different crews.
Pandora with "The Box Opens" and all her thematic stuff aims to get most of it's damage by forcing willpower duels and pinging of Misery. The list I posted above.

Or, you can take Pandora with voice and depression; and then just take the strongest stuff from Neverborn. Pandora paralyzes stuff while the rest of the crew goes to work.

Nekima
Mr Graves
Doppleganger
Primordial Magic

etc

They are both very different crews, and they are both very strong.

But if you try and mix them up, then you will have problems.

Rasputina is a hard counter to both crews though :'(

[LulleK]

I'm pretty new to Neverborn too, so I haven't tried Voices with Sorrows, but I guess it will work.

The benefits from having a box opens is that it's another layer of protection for her (since she wants to be in the enemys face) that also causes more WP-duels. With Voices you loose Pandoras own Misery if you don't move closer than 10 inches (the range of the paralyze).

I feel depression should be a no brainer for Voices, but haven't tried with or without. I've seen many people go without it so I guess it's not needed.

[TeddyBear]

I ask, please, a competitive list brawler pandora based with misery etc. etc?

[LulleK]

1 minute ago, TeddyBear said:

I ask, please, a list brawler pandora based with misery etc. etc?

I asked the same question in a thread some days ago and now I've tried the style so I know a bit about how it works. I would say:

 

Pandora - Box Opens, Fears Given Form, Aether Connection

Primordial Magic or Poltergeist

1-2 Sorrows

1-2 Insidious Madness

Then fill out with synergy like Iggy/Widow Weaver/Teddy and/or good stuff like Doppleganger/Nekima etc.

[Kirby]

I like playing Box Pandora more than Voices, although Voices is probably more effective overall.  Paralyze is quite good, after all.

Anyhow, it's usually something like this:

• Pandora - Box Opens, Wings, Aether Connection - 4ss
• Primordial Magic
• Mysterious Emissary - Conflux of Sorrow
• Iggy
• Mr. Graves
• Doppelganger
• Sorrow
• Insidious Madness

[Ergonomic Cat]

6 hours ago, Commisarp said:

Yes, there are two different crews.
Pandora with "The Box Opens" and all her thematic stuff aims to get most of it's damage by forcing willpower duels and pinging of Misery. The list I posted above.

Or, you can take Pandora with voice and depression; and then just take the strongest stuff from Neverborn. Pandora paralyzes stuff while the rest of the crew goes to work.

Nekima
Mr Graves
Doppleganger
Primordial Magic

etc

They are both very different crews, and they are both very strong.

But if you try and mix them up, then you will have problems.

Rasputina is a hard counter to both crews though :'(

That's pretty much what I like to do.  Voices Pandora is basically independent.  Then you take the "Neverborn All-Stars" listed above.  Then add Terror Tots or Waldgeist or Siliruids or whatever else you'd like for schemes and counters.

[Treehouse]

Hi,

(long term forum lurker here,finally signed up )

 

I've played Pandora quite a bit an she really is fun - both of her builds. They also depend on whether you want Pandora to be in the thick of things or in the backfield. Which is also dependent on strategies and shemes. Turf war calls out more to Brawler Pandora for example. Then again, I would be careful to choose Brawler in Reckoning, since she is best IMO with her (weak) minions in that build and having weak minions in Reckoning can be a big drawback.

 

Models you should always consider regardless of build:

Doppelgaenger (why wouldn't you...)

A model fit for any sheme really. Excellent for bodyguard (Manipulative, Blend in and 'Malifaux provides' so he can always plant a sheme marker and use it to heal). Anti-shemers by mimicing Primordials 'Nullify' etc.

 

Insidious Madness

Basically never use it for the auras, primarily for sheme running. It can be nice, but if you play Brawler, you already probably have weak Sorrows to worry about, if you play Paralyze they might be the only weak models close to the opponent. But it's there. It's also a Woe and so benefits from the 'Depression' upgrade.

 

Primordial Magic

Though I kind of like the Poltergeist, The PM is just so flexible and resourceful for its cost. One more activation vor 2SS, being able to act as a sheme marker (which, arguably isn't as good in GG2016 anymore but still good), more card cycling for those sweet crows and able to 'Nullyfy' enemy sheme runners is fantastic. If shemes will likely sent models into your tablehalf, having the PM, Padora with Fugue State and Doppelgaenger Mimicing Nullify can really stop any attempts at playing sheme markers for Breakthrough etc. And the PM wants to be somewhere safe anyway.

 

Iggy

Iggy is really good with Pandora, mainly for his Incite (very important for Paralyze 'Dora, double the fun for Brawler) and Martyr ability. Basically, Iggy can be used to keep your vulnerable Sorrows around longer, or even save the Doppelgaenger or Pandora herself sometimes. Also, in combination with Padora you can do two things:

- Chain-Martyr: Use Iggy or Pandora as a channeller, for example, Pandy absorbs dmg from nearby Sorrow and as she then suffers dmg and is a woe, Iggy can absorb that dmg. This way, you can keep them more spread out and hide them better.

- Double-Martyr: Keep Iggy close (you could even think about activating him early, skipping Incite and Throw a Fit instead) so that you can absorb 2 dmg (1 by Iggy, one by Dora) from nearby woes, such as Sorrows. As Sorrows have to be very close, this is a good option. Paired with their Incorporal, this can keep them alive long enough to really benefit from their Misery and Life Leech

 

Sorrows

Many don't like them but they have their place in a Brawler list and even sometimes a Paralyze (Voices) list, since you sometimes want to play Voices into Turf War if the shemes are right and get close with Padora for the Ca7 instead of Ca6. They are just tricky to keep alive long enough. But if you want to get good mileage out of Brawler Pandora, Sorrows are the way, at least one. They are also quite fast, actually. Misery Loves Company is easy to cast and can target your own models. And it's a place not a push, so including the targets' bases, the Sorrow can cover at least 18" (8+1 (base) per AP).

 

Beckoner

More situational/sheme dependent, but both her attack actions target WP, and while Lilitu has the better Lure and Engagement range, the Beckoner has a solid ranged attack without a gun symbol, so she can draw models closer to Pandora (and possibly get 1 or two damage from Misery auras) and then cast into engagement if you have a mask, causing more damage by Misery. She can also move with a successful lure and get your own models around.

 

Bishop

Expensive with the mercenary tax added, but he can beat face so well, and he can choose to target WP, which is really mean if Pandora and/or a Sorrow are near.

 

Widow Weaver

If you have a game where models are expected to be bunched up or you want to create a no-go area, take her. The -1WP webmarkers are hilarious with both Pandora builds.

 

Illuminated

A solid, tough minion who can do some heavy lifting if you play Voices.

 

----------------------

As for Nekima, she seems good on paper, but I haven't actually played her. I think the is quite expensive. All in all I would see her more in a Voices list, where she can bash paralyzed opponents.

Teddy just dies so fast. Graves is fun, but I don't take him with Pandora because Voices doesn't need him to push around and Brawler will have Fears Given Form, wasting an AP on him if he wants to start outside of that aura since he'll ahve to walk up to Dora to Show Her The Door then. Also, Doppelgaenger can't copy his melee attack.

---------------------

As for Upgrades, the best (IMO) build have already been mentioned. I sometimes like to go with  Voices - Wings - Fugue, if Fugue might be worthwhile because of shemes.

If you want to take a 1SS upgrade on a model, always take 'A Thousand Faces' first. Not so much to confuse your opponent but to give you the chance to adapt. If your opponent doesn't field much armour, why place Retrib.Eye on Doppelgaenger?

_____________

Kill or Paralyze any models with condition removal early if possible. They can wreak your game plan. Use Incite to have other models (preferably paralyzed ones) activate before them, or Incite them, if they can't take the condition off of themselves. Have them acitvate first and then dish out Paralyze.

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Treehouse
Spelling, additions

[TeddyBear]

Thanks guys for all answer,

i was thinking to a list (only for example, i know that in Malifaux list depends on the schemes/strategies and opponents ) i only need to get an idea..

For example brawler pandora

 

Pandora (3ss)

the box opens (2ss)

fears given form (1ss)

Poltergeist (5ss)

Widow Weaver (8ss)

fears given form (1ss)

Iggy (5ss)

Insidious madness (5ss)

Insidious madness (5ss)

Sorrow (5ss)

Sorrow (5ss)

Changeling (4ss)

Changeling (4ss)