Expanding Outcasts (Further!)

[Wolfpact]

So yeah, me again.

 

(Sorry!)

 

Anyhow, funds have increased a bit (and I've realized I may be better off buying the main books digitally due to practicality reasons). In addition, I've gotten a few more games in with Parker and his Outcast buddies, and the more I play them the more comfortable I feel in the faction.

 

I already know I'm grabbing up the Hired Guns and Hired Swords boxes plus Hannah and a Hodgepodge Effigy per y'all's kind suggestions in my last thread. So that leaves around $100 (safe and lowball estimate) more to play with in light of said finance factors.

 

So,  what comes next? Hamelin seems like a huge investment from my reading - $100 flat to get him going between his box and Brotherhood of the Rat  is, I admit, a little daunting. But then I've heard he's a really good control Master? Lot of eggs in one basket all the same.

 

I still like Leveticus overall - being honest, I love his aesthetic and lore and his reputation for killy brutality - while reassuring - isn't the draw; I hear nothing but glowing praise for Rusty Alyce, too, and that she works nicely with both VS and the Viks?   I know his biggest strength is his ridiculously-deep hiring pool, but honestly I'm just in t for his thematic bits, here.. does that cheapen him?

 

Tara..I admit, I love her aesthetic; I consider Death Marshals one of the coolest-looking things in the game but my Guild interest is next-to-nil and she can bring them. But I've heard a lot of negative press for her? I see "she's fiddly' as a recurring theme there which in full disclosure is not really a turn-off for me - I like having a lot of buttons to press and levers to pull - but that doesn't seem to be the limit of the negativity?

 

Jack Daw I hear a lot of good press for, and the games I've watched online of him makes him seem really fun. Bonus: Dead Outlaws are going to be bought when provided for purchase to use with Parker. Maybe the Crossroads 7 too? It's a lot easier to swallow $110 for two Crews than $100 for one, and I hear a lot of praise for Envy with Parker. Plus as with others, I simply like their themes and visuals as models.

 

Or rather than new Masters / Crew Boxes, should one focus on individual models? Lazarus speaks to me and is a Freikorpsmen, and I've always liked the look of Vanessa who is, of course, a Sister.  Levi's box plus more Abominations and maybe a Desolation Engine? Maybe Anna Lovelace if she's available (I know she has good denial and that the 'Korps thrive on take-and-hold, and that she has the 'Korps tag)?

 

Something I've totally overlooked?

 

For reference, what I already own in Outcasts

* Parker Barrows

* Mad Dog Brackett

* Bandido x3

* Doc Mitchell

* Johan

* Sue

* Big Jake

 

And what is already on the shopping list

* Hired Guns

* Hired Swords

* Hannah

* Hodgepodge Effigy

 

 

 

[Franchute]

Id rather buy individual minis. Lazarus or strongarm suit are solid, especially if you play the hired guns and sword. I'll add in the malifaux child for the viktorias.

Edit: I forgot about Vanessa too for the Viks. She is complementary with Lazarus.

[Argentbadger]

Considering what you have already plus what you have coming, I'd suggest to play a few games before you decide what else you want to add to the collection.

If you're really keen to spend the money, then the Jack Daw, Leveticus and Tara boxes are all perfectly fine additions to what you have.  Jack Daw and Tara don't particularly add much to your options for the other three masters but are happy to take from them.  Leveticus can use almost anything that costs six or more soulstones; Ronin, Trappers and Librarians are all excellent anchors.  In addition, Leveticus gets you the option to include Rusty Alyce in your crews, and I get a lot of value out of her.

Despite Tara's poor reputation on the forums, I think that she is good enough to use if you find her entertaining.  I will note that I couldn't get the burying shenanigans to work to my satisfaction, but making your stuff fast, beast-bombing people and having six AP in some turns can be handy.

I would second Franchute's suggestion of adding the Malifaux Child; it goes very well with the Viktorias and Tara.

[Freman]

Welcome down the rabbit hole. So glad you can join us.

All the masters you've listed are great. In Hamelin's defence, while you do have to buy two boxes to make full use of him, you can use his basic box along with your other models to play him as an Obey master, allowing the always fun combination with I Pay Better and two Trappers, discard for focus, shoot, focus, times two, then Obey two more focused shots. If two Trappers are good, four are better. He can do the same trick with Lazarus too.

While Leveticus is slightly less killy than he used to be, his style of play, unbury, channel, shoot, focus, shoot, bury again is still straightforward. His thematic crew does include Ashes and Dust and the Desolation Engine, and it never hurts to have a few more Abominations, so factor those into the cost. Fortunately all Outcast beaters are good. Rusty Alyce is my favourite henchman. 

Von Schill is a good all-rounder, and of course his crew are useful for everyone else too. Lazarus, Hannah, and Strongarm Suit are great additions.

Viktorias are cool, but are a high risk high reward style of gameplay. Again their crew is all mercenaries so handy for everyone. Vanessa adds to the sisterly synergy, and she's BFFs with Lazarus.

Jack Daw has a lot of synergy with his crew so there's always an incentive to buy tormented models. The Crossroads Seven are good models for him, but you'll find yourself browsing the Resurrectionists for things like Nurses.

Your other wannabe Resurrectionist is Tara and while I have all her bits I haven't played her yet. Death Marshals are cool, even if Guild aren't, so being able to take them without being Guild is good. Karina really only functions as a summoner so if you want to use her you'll need a few Ressur models for that too.

Misaki is another master i have but haven't played yet. The ability to combine Smoke and Shadows, Jorogumo, and Trappers From the Shadows deployment could be... interesting.

As you may have noticed, Resurrectionists donate a lot of models to our cause. Even more when factoring in Pariah of Bone.

This is how they get you, but we love it.

[Wolfpact]

Thanks to everyone so far!

 

As to spending the money, it's to push up my purchase total for whatever Black Friday incentives are on offer.

 

And as far as the Resurrectionists go, it doesn't bother me to invest there as given density of 'Masters I find appealing / interesting' is thickest in them after Outcasts, they'relikely where I'll end up expanding one of these nights

[Freman]

Yes, I'm much the same on Resurrectionists.

[Kalkris]

I see you're in the camp of getting the sell-sword style masters first and that's quite okay. I looks to me that you're worried about the true outcasts among the Outcasts and I can't blame you. I like them more than the sell-swords to be frank with you.

I feel like it's a solid investment to get Jack Daw and the Crossroads 7 if nothing additional to the cart beyond what's already there. (Cue "but Kalkris, you ALWAYS say that!" to which I shall say "yes and there's a plethora of REASONS I do that!") Jack is amazing as a control/debuff master. He doesn't do activation control like Hamelin does, nor all that often does crowd control in a death bubble like Leveticus tends to, but he is a swiss army knife, more so than Von Schill could even dream of being. Ignore Tara for now - she's not terribly notable, and Misaki I can't say much on but I know that early on my friend used her a bunch and got that many losses (this was before Jorogumo though so I cannot give an update yet - but it seems that Misaki is better in 10T anyway... Is that REALLY the direction you'd want to go just yet?).

Jack is an amazing denial master and his crew choices more than complement this. Furthermore, they can make him killy, or movement-oriented, or even somewhat tanky.

The crux in the plans that Jack Daw tends to have often is that he is fairly useless without models in his crew to augment. He augments his crew more than anything else, and without that, he is pretty hard to pilot to get things done.

Why choose him then? He doesn't actually NEED a full-thematic Tormented crew to shine (although it certainly does limit him a bit not to use the other Outcasts, delegating his crew to only Tormented models limits him just a bit more). You can make non-Tormented models Tormented, so he can manipulate them properly. One of my go-tos for this is Sue, which you have. I have also heard good about using Taelor to that end (and she comes with the Viktorias so that'd be in your itinerary anyway).

In the end though the decision is up to you. Happy shopping!

~Lil Kalki

[hydranixx]

My first instinct is to say, easy there tiger. You've just picked up 2 new masters; it's going to take you a little while to get familiar with them. One risk of increasing your master pool so substantially when you're new to the game or a faction, is that you may find yourself inundated with choices.

I know that sounds counter intuitive at first; in a game like Malifaux, how could more options possibly be a bad thing? But my genuine feeling is that if you pick up too many masters at once, you could spread yourself too thin and might not get an in-depth understanding for each of them individually.

Everyone here knows of someone who owns all or almost all the masters in a faction, but gravitated only to 1 or 2 of them and exclusively play them, while the rest sit on the shelf gathering dust, sometimes still on the sprue.. There's just not enough time in the average working week to play everything...

That said, if you do get to play like 4-5 games per week, then you can very quickly get some solid game time with each master. In particular, Vassal is awesome for that, if it suits you.

I'm no expert in Outcasts, but my experience with and against Leveticus is that he's easy enough to pick up with the waif + anchor mechanic, but has a really high skill ceiling, owing to the complexity of his hiring pool. I honestly think one could exclusively play Leveticus for a year and no two games would be exactly alike, particularly if you have quite a lot of undead or constructs models to hire in from other factions.

Again, as Freman points out, Rusty Alyce is an exceptional henchwoman, and performs well with other masters as well as with Levi himself. Between her, Levi and their thematic pieces, you also have some fairly unique summoning options - summoning Abominations as a byproduct of killing enemies as a great 2 for 1, not to mention Desolation Engine or Ashes & Dust dying and becoming two pieces. 

Leveticus, as stated, really thrives when you have a deep 6 stone + model pool. I think you've already got a decent arsenal to work with, between Johan, Hannah, Sue & your Trapper, but you could easily expand that with most of the medium/high priced options in Outcasts. You could even opt to add tough, mobile anchors like Soulstone Miners and Hunters if you go Pariah of Iron or control pieces such as Dead Doxies if you go Pariah of Bone. Food for thought.

[daniello_s]

Just don't go anywhere near Levi... It is a trap...

As I'm running low on the space in my box now I decided to stop buying more stuff for Levi.  Really. I think I have enough models to play him for next couple of months...

[Kirby]

First off, I agree with the above suggestion of not getting anything more and just play with what you have, but I know the lure of shiny plastic all too well so we can at least direct you in a nicer path.  

Vanessa + Lazarus:  Both of them are great individually, and even moreso together.  Vanessa can use her (0) Command Construct to get an extra shot, movement, or interact action out of Lazarus.  If you bring Hannah along, she can (0) to copy Lazarus's Assimilate ability to copy his Grenade Launcher.  I wouldn't recommend bringing all three, but you have options that interact well with what you have.

Another single model I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned is the Strongarm Suit.  I have enjoyed using it with Parker to give some mobile melee prowess to the crew, using it as a disruption piece or with The Bigger They Are upgrade to tear down beefy henchmen and enforcers.  As a Freikorps model it benefits from Von Schill's things and Hannah can borrow its self-buffs with her (0) Make a New Entry ability.

If you get Jack Daw, you might as well pick up the Crossroads 7.  They are all Tormented for a reason.  Jack is that reason.  They introduced a lot of flexibility to our anguished friend, especially Lust.  After that, there are a few other models I'd consider usual Jack Daw crew models that you may want to look into for future purchases.

• Nurses - I always take one, usually never take two
• Jaakuna Ubume - For only 6ss this lady is amazing.  Granting a Lure in non-Leveticus Outcasts is great, even if it is only Ca6.  She also makes a nice carrier for the Creeping Terror upgrade, increasing auras for models such as herself, Daw, Rusty Alyce, and others.
• The Drowned - They have synergy with Jaakuna Ubume's aura of hazardous terrain and are pretty resilient in melee range.  Not a bad model for the cost, but not necessary to buy right away.
• Crooked Men - I consider these to be sleeper models in Ressers; models that many people overlook until they see how amazing they are for the points.  A paralyze trigger on melee attacks and ranged poison blasts can really add up, especially since they are resilient to ranged attacks.  Added synergy with Gluttony and against all the new masters that like to produce scheme markers in b2b with models.
• Rusty Alyce - Not Tormented until you apply it to her via a Guilty, but the added movement granted from Daw really fixes her 2AP problem.  Works great with Lust pushing people out of cover, or Mad Dog simply negating cover.  Being able to borrow her gun or Obey her to shoot it again is always nice, too.  Her "No Charge" aura increases to 4" when in LoS to a model holding the Creeping Terror upgrade which really helps keep your models safe and messes with your opponent's plans.  Added fun of summoning if you want to go that route, but I usually save my Crows for Nurse paralyzes.  I take her with Daw very often, but not necessarily every time.
• Taelor - You will already get her with the Hired Swords crew, so this is just more of a footnote for future crew building.  I usually don't like Taelor because of her slow movement and feeling like Johan's 6ss relic hammer is usually plenty, but Taelor is much more fun with Jack Daw since his extra movement abilities make a world of difference.
• Ashes & Dust - No specific synergy, but you can make it Tormented via a Guilty since it applies the trait and not a condition.  You get added movement and a psuedo-Obey on a model that is already a major threat and nuisance.  If you have Rusty Alyce then you have Leveticus, so you want A&D at that point anyway.

Leveticus:  This guy is a black hole for your wallet if you choose him to be, but honestly you can run a perfectly valid 50ss crew consisting of just his crew box, Ashes & Dust, and Lazarus.  In general I'd add in the Hodgepodge Effigy for that crew, which you'll already own anyway.  Lots of options are available, the most of any master, but it is not necessary to go nuts to be competitive or to have fun with him.  Other things he likes from Outcasts include Freikorps Trapper, Freikorps Librarian, and Ronin.  Oh look, you'll already own those things!  So a $100 option would be to pick up Leveticus box + Vanessa + Lazarus.  If you can swing a bit more for the Strongarm suit, I'd probably do that combination of four things over Jack Daw + Crossroads for now.

 

[Wolfpact]

3 hours ago, hydranixx said:

My first instinct is to say, easy there tiger. You've just picked up 2 new masters; it's going to take you a little while to get familiar with them. One risk of increasing your master pool so substantially when you're new to the game or a faction, is that you may find yourself inundated with choices.

I know that sounds counter intuitive at first; in a game like Malifaux, how could more options possibly be a bad thing? But my genuine feeling is that if you pick up too many masters at once, you could spread yourself too thin and might not get an in-depth understanding for each of them individually.

Everyone here knows of someone who owns all or almost all the masters in a faction, but gravitated only to 1 or 2 of them and exclusively play them, while the rest sit on the shelf gathering dust, sometimes still on the sprue.. There's just not enough time in the average working week to play everything...

That said, if you do get to play like 4-5 games per week, then you can very quickly get some solid game time with each master. In particular, Vassal is awesome for that, if it suits you.

I'm no expert in Outcasts, but my experience with and against Leveticus is that he's easy enough to pick up with the waif + anchor mechanic, but has a really high skill ceiling, owing to the complexity of his hiring pool. I honestly think one could exclusively play Leveticus for a year and no two games would be exactly alike, particularly if you have quite a lot of undead or constructs models to hire in from other factions.

Again, as Freman points out, Rusty Alyce is an exceptional henchwoman, and performs well with other masters as well as with Levi himself. Between her, Levi and their thematic pieces, you also have some fairly unique summoning options - summoning Abominations as a byproduct of killing enemies as a great 2 for 1, not to mention Desolation Engine or Ashes & Dust dying and becoming two pieces. 

Leveticus, as stated, really thrives when you have a deep 6 stone + model pool. I think you've already got a decent arsenal to work with, between Johan, Hannah, Sue & your Trapper, but you could easily expand that with most of the medium/high priced options in Outcasts. You could even opt to add tough, mobile anchors like Soulstone Miners and Hunters if you go Pariah of Iron or control pieces such as Dead Doxies if you go Pariah of Bone. Food for thought.

Heh. Again I'm mainly trying to get while my funds are good, and push up my order total for sale bonuses. That and I am working to get my various game-playing friends and family into the game and maybe someday even jump-start a local scene/meta for the game here, so having a nice assortment for people to poke around and learn with is part of it too.

 

(That and in the immortal words of Jayne Cobb, "I like bein' spoilt fer choice." I'm that lunatic who love a ton of options. Probably helps that I pick up new concepts and mechanics fast - head for game theory I suppose?)

 

I might hold off on the Viks as I already have a couple strong melee options (Pandora, plus Illuminated, Baby Kade, and a Teddy) from my Neverborn collection. As for Levi, I know he has a huge hiring pool but honestly, I just like his look and feel plus his primary thematic crew - the Abominations and the Engine, plus Rusty and Levi's look himself. And I'd be lying if I didn't say thatFour Horsemen bit he can do is not deeply entertaining as a notion - but given the fact those are $35 apiece plus the Emissary besides, that's a very distant thought.

 

I mainly just want a solid toolbox without jumping around through too many Factions (for now). I love Parker to death, he's a genuine joy to play in both feel and mechanics and I find him really good for scheming and mobility. Lynch and Co. are my go-to crew for just flat-out murder. And I love Pandora very, very much - but all of my (tiny) number of opponents who I brought into the game absolutely hate facing her.... I've not gotten a summoner or swarmer yet - My Parker crew is my most numerous when it comes to activations, to date, and VS I love for tanky work....

 

 

[Wolfpact]

I might amend to just, again, holding on the Viks and getting more single models? Rounding out the 'Korps?

 

Something like the Effigy, VS, Lazarus, Hannah, Vanessa, a SAS, Levi, a DE, and a box of Abominations?

[hydranixx]

13 minutes ago, Wolfpact said:

I might amend to just, again, holding on the Viks and getting more single models? Rounding out the 'Korps?

 

Something like the Effigy, VS, Lazarus, Vanessa, a SAS, Levi, a DE, and a box of Abominations?

Well, there's so many good choices, it's going to feel like you're cutting something, somewhere, no matter what.

As mentioned, Taelor and the Ronin come from Hired Swords and they're exceptional. If you were going to cut the Viks, Vanessa loses a lot of her appeal as well, as her main synergy is with them. In my opinion, you should either get both or neither.

I'm not sure you need a second box of Abominations. You're unlikely to hire many of them, if any at all, so it's rare you'd have 4 on the table and need to add another.

Cutting Vanessa and cutting Abominations should make room for Ashes & Dust, or the Emissary, or some other big swinger.

[Wolfpact]

Yeah, that's the downside.

 

And that's just looking at Outcasts!

 

Maybe hold off on Levi for now instead. Out-of-Faction, I've kinda been eyeing McMourning as he does the Horde playstyle well while backing it up with some strong beef-walls (plus thecharacter amuses me) and that'd get Nurses for Jack in the bargain. Dunno.

 

Damn you Wyrd, for making so much that seems so damned good!

[hydranixx]

Yeah, McMourning is a tonne of fun from what I hear. The good Doc also has one of the more aggressive forms of summoning. He's similar to Levi with those 2 for 1 trades; "I'll take one of your models and replace it with one of mine":

- Put poison on things
- Kill things that have poison on them by dealing damage equal to the poison on them
- Summon free giant zombies
- Forgot to kill things that have poison on them?
- Poison kills things that have poison on them anyway
- Summon free zombie dogs
- Focus on scheme marker shenanigans and win games.
- Acquire more free zombies.

Have you looked at Anna Lovelace? She also makes more zombies when she shoots people, because awesome. In all seriousness, Anna's really good. She's also a Freikorps and fits well in many crews. 

The Nurses you speak of are a prime example of a good model that fits in many hiring pools and is thus a great pick up for budgetary reasons - very popular in many Resser crews while at the same time very good to hire across factions with Zoraida and with Jack Daw.

[dancater]

A big question in your original request is...

Do you plan to expand a new master to playability or concentrate instead (at least short-medium term) on developing the master you have (Parker) and are going to get (Von Schill and the Viks)?

If the later then I'd look at $100- worth of mainly small boxes and thus expand your three master current pool, in particular since with your current and soon to be crew boxes you've got a good range of the in the crew box useful to all Outcast essentials (notably Freikorps mini's and Ronin).  If the former then getting another crew box makes sense.

So the new crew box first

• Levi is very good with a huge hire pool yes but he can hammer on a narrower pool.  Rusty Alice is a damn good any crew model.  This box is solid as a new crew and as a support to your current stuff.
• Missaki was not mentioned in you post, she is TT/Outcasts and as an Outcast master runs well with a lot of models you have or will get.  Sadly her initial crew box is TT so pretty much useless for other Outcast masters.  In effect you buy a crew box solely for one Outcast mini, the master itself (you may be able to buy her separately somewhere thus avoiding this).
• Tara is a time manipulating, order of activation, activation control and bury mechanic master.  She is tricky to play well but very damn powerful when she is.  The void wretches in her box are excellent all around minions in Outcasts.  Her box is a good buy.
• Hamelin is a justly feared master, good summoner and if the Rat Engine purrs formidable.  But he's expensive and since the Rat Engine prevention (to prevent every Outcast master from easily building a Rat Engine) cuddle his box took a hit in cross faction desirability.  Good master if you like his schtick and play but expensive.  I'd avoid this early.
• Jack Daw, I have the least knowledge of.  He is a upgrade based buff/debuff guy basically.  Plays solid, people love him, models look suitably disturbing.  Don't hear much about using his box contents in other crews.  I'd avoid unless you want to play him, his box is poor-average otherwise.

Now other Outcast stuff

• Hodgepodge Emissary is excellent, solid buy and runs well at least in Von Schill and the Viks crews.  I'd buy this.
• Hans is a useful alternative or addition to the Freikorps Trapper snipers and as an enforcer can upgrade (and has a new 0SS one as well).
• Killjoy, because the name says it all.  One of the justly feared Outcast models, he'll (it?) will die fast but it nearly always also dies hard.
• You really really need a Malifaux Child, at 2SS he is simply always a viable model.  Must buy.
• The Strongarm Suit is a superb Freikorps boost and runs immensely well with other crews.
• Lazarus  is a superb Freikorps boost and runs immensely well with other crews. And yes this is a repeat of above, one is basically more ranged (Laz) the other faster melee.  I like the range so I'd buy this.
• Convict Gunslingers are solid ranged choices and can be used in many crews.
• Oiran and Performers are both amazing (Perfomrer Arcanist, Orian is TT) and useful models.  Nice purchases. 

I'd definitely add Lazarus, the Malifaux Child and Hodgepodge Emissary to my collection.  That would be around 60-70% of your budget.  Then you're more open for choice and based on max stretch budget. 

[dancater]

Schemes & Stones have good podcasts on Von Schill crew builds and Viks crew builds.  They also have a nice series of Malifaux on a $100- budget which looks at most different crews and shows good cheap budget purchase lists with short explanations as to why.

Have not got the links but look up Schemes & Stones and you'll find them.

Also welcome to the black hole of a want this, and that, and that and ...........

[Kirby]

Just to pop in, I disagree on the above suggestion of a Malifaux Child based on the statement of it being necessary.  He's nice with some Viktorias crews, but that's the only case in Outcasts that I'd bring him.  No other master will want him, and even the Viks only want him sometimes.  I prefer the Student of Conflict in most crews, but I do like him when I bring the Vanessa + Lazarus combo in particular since he can heal Vanessa to heal all three Sisters.

Misaki, specifically in Outcasts, is one of the weakest masters in the game.  Not in a "Oh, high skill ceiling so needs a bit of extra work" such as masters like Kaeris.  More like "wants to do a job she does not have the capability of doing" kind of way.  She is amazing in Ten Thunders because she has the support necessary to do her job and survive (Sensei Yu, Shadow Emissary, Recalled Training, Misdirection, Shadow Effigy).  She is a scalpel, intended to target a threat and remove it without your opponent having much say in the matter and then get away to a safe spot or tangle things up and be a nuisance until her next activation when she does it again.  She simply does not have the tools to do that in Outcasts, and anything she does you could do just as well or better with Von Schill or the Viktorias.  Definitely a great tool for a 10T collection, but nothing to offer Outcasts.  Further, her crew box is entirely 10T so you don't get any use with the rest of the Outcast models, and frankly you have better options for the stones within the Outcast faction anyway.  She is my go-to master for teaching new people how to play the game because I'm playing a master without teeth.

Tara is an odd duck.  She's basically pure support, but she supports via AP attrition and burial shenanigans.  Her burial mechanics allow her to remove threats temporarily and move both enemy and friendly models around out of their activation. She can pop buried models back up on the board and even control unburied enemy models for an activation.  She can also unbury her own models, allowing you to do her "beast bomb" function of unburying a big hitter, granting it Fast, and then chain activating into it to tear something apart.  This is especially effective with models like Killjoy, Bishop, Taelor, or the Nothing Beast.  I like her, I think she's fun, but I would not recommend her as a starter master since playing the AP Attrition game is difficult and if the Beast Bomb is interrupted or not effective then it can be very costly to her.

[Wolfpact]

So, if I were to focus on just the Hired boxes (which I'm coming to think is indeed a good idea)....

 

- Hired Swords

- Hired Guns

- Hannah

- Hodgepodge Effigy

 

So that'd leave us, currently, at adding for certain:

- Lazarus

- Vanessa

(Both of whom I've always loved the look of as models and who work well together)

 

Some follow-ups, if I may?

 

* Is it worth having a SAS and Lazarus? At leastin the immediate timeframe?

 

* As for the Malifaux Child.. I may be missing somewhere here? I know he can copy Master cast actions about like a Doppelganger (which asI started 'Born I have and know how to use; I mainly switched to Outcasts because of emragerddieselpunkcowboybanditsandsue! and the fact that while I was having a grand time none of my opponents were), but I currently can't see not taking Doc with Parker, and I've heard that the Student works stupidly well with both VS and the Viks (and honestly, making Parker or Mad Dog gain Fast just feels dirty), and that VS' Junk Trunk can really put the 'Korps already stupidly-good survivability through the roof properly used (I gave the S&S podcast a listen a while back and that was called out)?

 

* Hans.. I hear Hans get bad press? I know he can shoot off upgrades, and I've seen Unto the Breach video bat-reps use him well? Plus he's a character and honestly, it maysound stupid but part of why I love the Outcasts is how they're so full of personality and unique characters.  I've heard a Trapper makes him redundant? Of course I've also heard how great it is to have two Trappers but given they're not sold separately...

 

* Killjoy, He looks fun (and the synergy with Ronin is blatant).. but 12ss is a big whack off a crew budget. Does he earn his keep?

 

 

[dancater]

Vanessa+++

Lazarus++

100% agree with both.

SAS and Lazarus are both exceptional and do different things.  You rarely take both but frequently can take one over the other to maximize results.  You do not need both, Lazarus is probably slightly more flexible simply because of (a) his range and (b) he synergises nicely with Vanessa.  But having both him and the SAS certainly won't be redundant as they do different tasks well.

The Malifaux Child is a AP saver which is cheaper than the Student.  The Student spends 2AP to grant you fast so a flexible +1AP, is a Sister which is great and can also hit pretty hard in a pinch but is 4SS insignificant which is costly.  The Child will cast a Vik buff spell thus saving said Vik an AP (so still a +1AP but with narrow fix) and costs 2SS.  Honestly I prefer the Student as its thematic but the Child is probably better value.  The Child also has uses in other Outcast lists and elsewhere in other factions.  Its simply a really cheap and super flexible model you will eventually use somewhere.

Hans gets bad press because he costs more than the Trapper and does a similar job about as well, but only mostly.  Having some other powers and being able to take upgrades is damn useful sometimes.  You want a pure sniper ranger irritating killer then budget in a Freikorps Trapper.  But Hans brings other things.  Basically like the Student vs Child debate above.  He's a solid model.

Killjoy is fun and fear inducing.  You need a couple of fast expendable(ish) models in the crew to really use him, you want him out and causing mayhem ASAP and you want him to pop out in the middle of your opponents crew to maximise the chaos and carnage.  He will usually kill his value or near it if he pops up close, the resources and disruption lost to killing him quickly also are invaluable and make him worth taking sometimes.  I'd say 70% of the time you'll get value, 10% it will be a waste, 10% you'll be a little low and 10% of the time he'll get on a cleaver and chain death roll regening his wounds and tearing up everything. He's fun and solid to take but not an auto-include/auto-win machine.

You can also save a few spare dollars and see what you feel Parker needs, I've never seen him played nor looked at his crew heavily I'm sure once you have a few games in you'll think, damn me but I could really use model 'x'....  Not to mention some future Parker based releases in the coming months.

[Malharath]

My advice has been said already, just wanted to add in on Hans. 

You "need" to take I pay Better on someone and take Scout the Field on him. This makes him great, but 9ss. You can just kill a 5wd (without joker) model from across the table turn 1, no los needed.

[Kirby]

I'm not sure I'd take the Student outside of the Viktorias.  Her "Sister in Spirit" ability to place a friendly Sister in b2b with her is fantastic.  It gets either of the Viktorias or Vanessa out of trouble or moves them up the board more than their Wk value and is a Place, so gets around terrain and other models so long as you have LoS.  In a pinch she's also pretty decent in melee and hits surprisingly hard with a couple of the Sister buffs active.  That all said, without being with the Viks she's just a Fast battery, and a rather expensive one at that.  4ss to transfer 2AP for 1AP to another model that's in range, meaning every other turn it won't be usable.  That's fine for models that just sit back and fire, but less useful for others.

That said, I also wouldn't take the Malifaux Child with any of the other Outcast masters.  Well, I guess he could be good with Tara if you don't want to bring Karina and her potential summons along.  Use him to poke your models with Fast, since at Ca4 he's unlikely to hit opponent models to give them Slow.  I was a bit curious about him with Jack Daw, using Twist and Turn's Feel Their Torment ability to borrow actions from Tormented models at full value, but he needs an 11+ to cast it so that's not really worthwhile.

The problem with Hans is that the Trapper is 2ss cheaper, is far more mobile, is better at killing due to built in flip on attacks and Critical Strike trigger, and can run schemes if you don't have a good target since it's usually up the board with From The Shadows already.  Hans is still nice for what he does since he hands out good condition, can shoot off Upgrades which are even more prevalent nowadays, and does handy things like shoot into engagement and ignore terrain created by Markers.  However, if there aren't open lanes to shoot from then he loses a lot of capability.  He's simply not quick enough to relocate without investing a bunch of AP to it.  Someone holding the I Pay Better upgrade is basically mandatory with him since he doesn't have a built in to attack and people like to hide in cover.  That's not necessarily a bad thing since many Outcast crews like to bring along models with the mercenary trait anyway.

[Franchute]

I love Lazarus (for many reasons, durability, autofire...), but one bad thing with this model is that it is slow (Wk 4). This is pretty bad for some strategies, but he is excellent in Turf war/extraction. Because the strongarm suit is faster (WK 5 and the flying jump), he may be preferable for these other strats. Moreover, the damage reduction trigger might be useful against certain factions.

[Wolfpact]

13 hours ago, dancater said:

Vanessa+++

Lazarus++

100% agree with both.

SAS and Lazarus are both exceptional and do different things.  You rarely take both but frequently can take one over the other to maximize results.  You do not need both, Lazarus is probably slightly more flexible simply because of (a) his range and (b) he synergises nicely with Vanessa.  But having both him and the SAS certainly won't be redundant as they do different tasks well.

The Malifaux Child is a AP saver which is cheaper than the Student.  The Student spends 2AP to grant you fast so a flexible +1AP, is a Sister which is great and can also hit pretty hard in a pinch but is 4SS insignificant which is costly.  The Child will cast a Vik buff spell thus saving said Vik an AP (so still a +1AP but with narrow fix) and costs 2SS.  Honestly I prefer the Student as its thematic but the Child is probably better value.  The Child also has uses in other Outcast lists and elsewhere in other factions.  Its simply a really cheap and super flexible model you will eventually use somewhere.

Hans gets bad press because he costs more than the Trapper and does a similar job about as well, but only mostly.  Having some other powers and being able to take upgrades is damn useful sometimes.  You want a pure sniper ranger irritating killer then budget in a Freikorps Trapper.  But Hans brings other things.  Basically like the Student vs Child debate above.  He's a solid model.

Killjoy is fun and fear inducing.  You need a couple of fast expendable(ish) models in the crew to really use him, you want him out and causing mayhem ASAP and you want him to pop out in the middle of your opponents crew to maximise the chaos and carnage.  He will usually kill his value or near it if he pops up close, the resources and disruption lost to killing him quickly also are invaluable and make him worth taking sometimes.  I'd say 70% of the time you'll get value, 10% it will be a waste, 10% you'll be a little low and 10% of the time he'll get on a cleaver and chain death roll regening his wounds and tearing up everything. He's fun and solid to take but not an auto-include/auto-win machine.

You can also save a few spare dollars and see what you feel Parker needs, I've never seen him played nor looked at his crew heavily I'm sure once you have a few games in you'll think, damn me but I could really use model 'x'....  Not to mention some future Parker based releases in the coming months.

Parker's a total blast to play, with his flexibility and pretty good speed. I'd not use him to take-and-hold much, at least not in the traditional dig-in mode - the shenanigans with Crate of Dynamite and Hail of Bullets. But while the Child's action copying could be useful there, it's hard to give up Doc for only 1 more SS given how well he can heal and the fact that his gun, while innacurate and needing clever positioning (or a doomed-anyway Doc) has actually surprised me. And Run and Gun on Bandidos is the best use I've found for crap cards when not playing Lynch.. I'll probably go down to two of them when I have more options but they've never failed to hit well above their point-cost for me. The main things I want for Parker are the Dead Outlaws; if they make that LE Performer available I will probably snag her if she's reasonable, to further my dreams of a Firefly-themed Barrows Gang....

 

I may get Hans even if he's redundant - my main opponent plays Gremlins, frequently Zipp, and those goggles seem useful there. Plus being honest, I like his smug look and overall design. Plus Cover is a dubious proposition with the 'Dog off his chain....

[dancater]

Love the idea of a Firefly themed Barrows gang, love it so damn much you may have cost me money.

As to the LE Performer, often Wyrd includes them (as they did with Miss Fire) as a reward for hitting a certain order dollar value.  So I usually save a bunch of purchases until Easter-GenCon-Black Friday sale and go kinda nuts.  It helps those sales also usually include pre-release items. If push comes to shove I can often find a friend or three who is willing to grab a box and add to my order and that tips me over the threshold.  She is a great model and would make an exceptional Inara proxy.