Corpse Candles and Bete Noire/Killjoy

[Mr Janje]

Can a Corpse Candle 0 to kill itself, summon bete noire/killjoy and chain activate onto whichever model it unburied?

 

[Bengt]

Rules reference, page 35 RM:

Quote

Resolving Actions
Resolving Actions is a fairly straight forward affair. The model simply proceeds
through four steps, regardless of Actions type (Tactical or Attack). During a model’s
Activation, the following steps are used to resolve an Action by the model:
1. Declare Action & Spend AP
2. Perform Duels
3. Resolve Results

A bit further down in the "1. Declare Action & Spend AP" section:

Quote

It is during this step that the model declares a target.

And on the next page:

Quote

3. Resolve Results
After the duel is completed, the model performs the Action’s effects. The most
common effects are dealing damage (see pg. 51) and movement, but other things
can occur.

So you select the model to chain activate to in step 1; the Candle dies and Killjoy/Bête Noire shows up in step 3.
 

[Adran]

No you can''t do that as there is no target to the ability when you declare the ability. You will have to declare the whole ability including targets before you start to perform sections of it. 

[solkan]

5 hours ago, Mr Janje said:

I'm reading as you kill the model, so KJ/BN appear once the model is killed, then you do the next part of the thing

The sticking point isn't the part about Bete Noire arriving because the model was killed, it's the part about Bete Noire arriving with "may unbury in base contact with the killed model before removing it from play."

Blind Sacrifice, the option in question, starts off "Target friendly model within 6" may draw a card and then discard a card.  The target may Activate immediately after the current Activation ends as a Chain Activation."

So the Corpse Candle is "killed" but you have to leave it on the table (and thus still in play) in order for the rest of action to make sense.  And because the Corpse Candle is still on the table, Bete Noire hasn't arrived yet.

Edit:  That, and as Adran points out, Bete Noire isn't on the table yet when you declare the action.  Per the action declaration rules, all of the choices (things like "choose one of the following" and "target friendly model") for an Action have to be declared before you resolve the action.

In other words, the target for the choices is declared before the Corpse Candle is killed, and at that point Bete Noire isn't within the distance.

[trikk]

Thanks actually a very good question. 

I`d say no. When you trigger the ability KJ/Bete are not on the table yet so they can`t be targeted.

[trikk]

If you finish killing the model its not on the table, which means you can`t measure the distance from it.

If it was the way you say it is, it would probably be "Kill this model. Then select one of the following..."

[Adran]

1 hour ago, FleaBag said:

I was thinking the same thing. It stated the model is killed then you take the rest of the action. I can see it both ways. Maybe we'll get an official erratta on it. 

If you look at Bengt's post, he talks through the timing reason for why it doesn't work this way. Malifaux action effects are written in a way that yiou need to read the action effects before you can do the action. If you have a target, then they need to be a legal target before you start doing the action.

Also the organisation of the rules forum isn't chronological, if you look at the thread, sorted by date, you'll see almost all the posts following Mr Janje explain why it doesn't work the way he thought it did. 

[verpixelt]

Like @solkan has pointed out in another tread, you have to declare any variables an action might have before you follow through with it. For this very reason you can choose the corpse candle itself as a target (tactical action) but not a model which gets summoned afterwards.

 

[FleaBag]

On 9/13/2016 at 11:36 AM, Mr Janje said:

I'm reading as you kill the model, so KJ/BN appear once the model is killed, then you do the next part of the thing

I was thinking the same thing. It stated the model is killed then you take the rest of the action. I can see it both ways. Maybe we'll get an official erratta on it. 

[Mr Janje]

5 minutes ago, trikk said:

Thanks actually a very good question. 

I`d say no. When you trigger the ability KJ/Bete are not on the table yet so they can`t be targeted.

I'm reading as you kill the model, so KJ/BN appear once the model is killed, then you do the next part of the thing