When do you take Thunder Archers, if at all?

[hydranixx]

Which crews would benefit the most from these guys?

I love the idea of playing a few of them near a model holding Blot the Sky; another question I had for you guys and girls:

If you do buy Blot the Sky, who holds it? Do you put it on a (reasonably) cheap model to keep costs down, or do you put it on someone sturdy and threatening enough to protect and buff them? 

(I think I like Kang with his auras, but he's expensive at 9ss and can't really contribute with his awesome melee prowess if he's at the back?)

[MuMantai]

I played it once with reasonable success and had the upgrade on Sensei Yu, a model I didn't have to commit anyway. He usually has one upgrade slot free...

[Skitt_Happens]

I've played BtS on Kang with Frame for Murder in the pool: you're opponent will have to kill him early.

Sidir with BtS and By Your Side is a good shout, as he can still do his thing and protect the archers at the same time.

Generally I prefer to take 1 archer and no BtS - they become less high priority targets that way, and if you have a melee crew they can apply some extra damage into combat.

[Eclipse]

Models that are sturdy and/OR like to hang in the back in still do well are good choices here.
Kang, Sensei Yu, Fuhatsu, Sidir, Jacob Lynch can all stay behind most of the time. Toshiro is a battlefield commander anyway, though you might want him further ahead in the field. Yamaziko is amazing for both Blot the Sky and Smoke and Shadows platform as she has (0) Brace Yari. If you are not taking both of those upgrades make her sturdier by throwing a Smoke Grenades on her as well.
Be careful with your archers as they fold easily and are priority targets for some crews. Especially taking two and BtS draws fire at them very quickly (and is also expensive). On the other hand, you can take one with the upgrade for less pressure, but somewhat wasting stones this way. Shenlong can make the most use out of them if he has Sensei Yu: Not only do they (0) Focus+2, Shenlong can discard BtS to move them up and Yu catches holds it for him.

[Tawg]

 

 Yamaziko is amazing for both Blot the Sky and Smoke and Shadows platform as she has (0) Brace Yari. If you are not taking both of those upgrades make her sturdier by throwing a Smoke Grenades on her as well.
 

I am shocked Yamaziko didn't come up sooner in this discussion

Another sweet perk of Yamaziko that many of the others don't have is her 40mm base.  Even with perfect positioning, you can't always protect a model from LoS with a body guard, but Yamaziko can guarantee blocked LoS with her base being larger.  Which is cool because the Archers ignore LoS anyways, although like Eclipse mentioned, you might want Smoke Grenades on Yamaziko if you plan on letting her be beat up with attacks.

Also, I've never done it, but using the Archers with a Mei Feng crew seems like it could be cool, with Mei Feng's Blocking Steam Clouds she makes, they could potentially shoot opponents with impunity through such shenanigans.  Although I think Mei Feng has enough "On theme" choices that she doesn't normally want to play with other toys, but it's potentially a thing you could try.

[hydranixx]

 

I am shocked Yamaziko didn't come up sooner in this discussion

Another sweet perk of Yamaziko that many of the others don't have is her 40mm base.  Even with perfect positioning, you can't always protect a model from LoS with a body guard, but Yamaziko can guarantee blocked LoS with her base being larger.  Which is cool because the Archers ignore LoS anyways, although like Eclipse mentioned, you might want Smoke Grenades on Yamaziko if you plan on letting her be beat up with attacks.

Also, I've never done it, but using the Archers with a Mei Feng crew seems like it could be cool, with Mei Feng's Blocking Steam Clouds she makes, they could potentially shoot opponents with impunity through such shenanigans.  Although I think Mei Feng has enough "On theme" choices that she doesn't normally want to play with other toys, but it's potentially a thing you could try.

I'm glad you brought this up, as I do play Mei Feng extensively. She does like her thematic choices, but it's healthy to deviate from pure construct/thematic models as they can really tie you down for some hard counters. I'd be keen to play them with her. I feel like early on Vent Steam would keep them nice and safe, while later on she can dash in and hold up most enemy models with her huge engagement range.

With Ten Thunders' access to Broken Promises and Misdirection, I feel like Mei could easily take up tanking duty while the Archers safely shoot into combat.

I'm also glad to read that Lynch has some potential with Archers, as he's the next master I'd look to add to my Thunders. At the very least, Ace in the Hole allows the Archers to freely rapid fire if I can secure a single 1 per turn.

[Rathnard]

As much as I love the sculpts, I've yet to find the archers to be worth taking. The problem with them as I see it, is that they're good at one thing in the right circumstances, but can't really do anything else.

They can shoot well into combat, so long as they start close enough to rapid fire and so long as the target isn't in cover. They're also useless in melee and very fragile for a 7SS model, so you can't really rely on it to do anything other than sit up the back, plinking damage off whoever you're engaged with. I'd be happy taking such a specialised model for 5SS, but at 7SS I expect them to do much more.

By comparison, the Katanaka Sniper and Samurai are both equivalently costed shooters. They're much tougher, actually good/great in melee and far better at range too, with positives to negate cover, better range and in the Samurai's case, the potential for ALOT more damage. There's also the Pathfinder (1SS cheaper), who's not good in melee (at least he's got an attack?) but is tougher, can lay traps with a (0) and is actually at least as good as the archer at range, thanks to the damage track and blasts on his musket. All three of these models are also able to achieve more than just shooting too. The Sniper and Pathfinder have From the Shadows, allowing them to become scheme runners as needed while the Samurai is just great in melee, making him a phenomenal all-rounder. The only advantage the Archer has on these models is being able to shoot into melee but honestly, if I wanted to deal some extra damage in combat I'd take an equally costed Illuminated instead. Especially if I was using Lynch. Hell, while I'm at it why not compare the Archer to the Guild Riflemen in a McCabe crew? Or an Austringer? I'd gladly take any of those over an Archer. 

Blot the Sky gives the archer/s that extra (2) attack but honestly, I don't rate it. You're paying a 1 SS to bring it in AND you need a Henchman or Enforcer to babysit the archers themselves. So now that's another 7+SS model sitting up the back, contributing little more than ranged damage. It also doesn't negate the fact that you're still investing a large chunk of your crew into models that are super-vulnerable to melee, but can shoot and do almost nothing else. 

 

I want to like the Thunder Archers. I really do. But I feel like they're just way overcosted for what you get. Especially when you consider the niche they fill, relative to the other great 10-T shooters available. Shooting into melee is nice, but it's not worth what you pay for with the archer. If he was redesigned into a super-evasive ranged ninja, or was simply dropped straight to 5 SS then I'd consider taking him. But as it is I really struggle to justify his inclusion in any crew I build. 

[OneLittleThunder]

These days, I will only take Thunder Archers if there is a place on the terrain where they can be pretty well isolated from the enemy (e.g., a Ht 2+ wall they can stand behind) and still be close enough to impact the main battle front. If there's a defined combat area (e.g. Turf War, Guard the Stash) that they can hide and be in range of, great - I'll take 2 Archers and someone to hold blot the Sky for them (preferably someone who can also be useful at range, so they're not useless, but also has some melee ability in case the enemy closes). It's a lot of points and a lot of conditions to be met, which may be why I haven't taken any Archers in over a year. Otherwise they are just too easily shut down for my tastes.

I am considering trying them out with Blot the Sky on Shenlong; as @Eclipse mentioned, he can move the archers once by discarding Blot the Sky and then Yu can pick it up and take over. Still not convinced it's worth the cost, though.

[Drowsheep]

I just ran a death ball of them a few games ago.  They were amazingly good at destroying everything.  I put BtS on Fuhatsu (I would, in the future, put it on Yu or Yamaziko).

with Yu and Shenlong pushing people around (archers or models that tried to engage them) I mowed down Howard, Kudra, and many other gamin under Sadir.

had the strategy been reckoning or had there been make them suffer, I'd have scored big, and I barely lost a model despite multiple attempts to take me down.

ultimately, I didn't win, but that was because I had too few models for reconnoiter in the early turns.

 

heres why you take them over samurai or snipers (I'll admit I usually run the other two).  That sh 6.  It's gotten me better results on the flip than a sniper or samurai has, combine that with focus (and then peasants giving them more focus for their end of turn hachinosu) and they can more reliably hit their targets.  Combine that with other models in Melee and they rock.

I'd pick them for killing schemes with strategies like turf war that get models all together.

i want to run them some more in the future, I think they'd do well with Asami as she summons Ono to fight the Melee while they provide a secondary threat at range.  But I haven't tried Asami yet, so that's for the future.

[Inquisitor Wall]

I have never fielded them.  I love the look of them.  I have some painted, but there always seems to be a better 5-7SS model.  Yamiziko combined with them could be good, but then you are around 20 points, which is too substantial of an investment.  I might try them out with the emissary, since giving out extra blasts on damage could be fun, but they still seem over costed. 

[InvokeChaos]

McCabe. Run Mounted Guard. Toss the 10T archer a saber. It's Cg8. The Mounted guard can drag it and place it into a good position. If you have the chain activate trigger in your hand, even better.

It's also been mentioned elsewhere, but drop blot the sky on Shenlong and discard it for free pushes and then attach it to Sensei Yu via promising disciple. Also, the shenlong, yu archer bubble makes them focused regularly and thus Sh7, ignoring engagement. With a free hachinosu's at the end of the turn.  Fantastic for center based scheme pools.

[hydranixx]

I didn't have access to their stats or costs, so I'm genuinely saddened to hear they're each 7ss, as I honestly expected them to be 5ss per model. I agree with all your sentiments.

It seems like the Samurai's +++ or Katanaka's ++ (with focus) is good enough when you're shooting into cover, and if you ever wanted to shoot into combat, just use all the pushes that Thunders are famous for, and now you're not shooting into combat anymore?

[InvokeChaos]

Different purposes, I feel.

Samurai are a mobile gun platform that has intense melee capabilities. They can spray bullets, fish for jokers and basically don't care about cover for the attack. They potentially can walking fire several times and just lay damage down across a wide swathe. They are stalwart with their armor 2, but that's not going to save against a concentrated effort with their low wd count.

Snipers are powerful. Stupid good. Good attack. Good passives. Good melee. Great range. But they are snipers. Single shot.

Archers are rapid fire single target assassins. They are Sh6, can rapid fire into engagement and their ability to gain focus 2 is just ridiculous. Running with their upgrade is icing on the cake. In a shenlong crew with the 0 action to focus, once they are in position, they are 6AP a turn: focus, three 1AP attacks and a 2AP attack.  you shoot three times, focus afterwards and then your blast gets the focus 2 at the end of the turn. 

I think like most of our models, they have master's they prefer over others. I would run archers with McCabe, Miskai and Shenlong. Maybe Mei Fang (haven't played her yet so dunno). Yan Lo can lightning dance a model into a beater, and they can soften up or finish the target while it's engaged. They are very useful, just they have one glaring issue:

No melee.

You have to keep them back line to rain death on your enemies, or they just become a useless 7ss point activation.  Fortunately we have tons of ways around this. 

I love archers and use them interchangeably with our other ranged options.  I look at it like this:

Samurai - 8ss

Archer w/ upgrade - 8ss

Sniper - 7ss

All three are fantastic range with different areas of expertise and abilities. Which one fits your crew and the scheme pool the best?

[Eclipse]

I'd say Shenlong with all three of them fits my crew and scheme pool the best

[hydranixx]

Well Chaos, that's restored some of my interest in them, thank you. I agree that they probably shine most in Shenlong; most models seem to in fact. However, Thunders aren't my primary faction and he's among the hardest masters to play with, so it's unlikely I'd ever acquire him. I know... I know...

Still, I think I can possibly carve out a niche for Archers with Lynch & Mei in some scenarios as they're the only masters I'm going to focus on for the near future.

Archers seem like they work perfectly in tandem perfectly with cheap tarpit models, and Depleted seem like the finest example of such a model. They could even shoot the Depleted to blow them up as a last resort. Their access to Rapid Fire appears to be a good use for those recycling aces that Lynch provides.

I also think that with Huggy available for free, he could be an ideal candidate for holding onto BtS sometimes. I'd probably pair it with Endless Hunger and play him further back in the field. Pretty solid control + support piece for 3ss total, and breaks the mould of always rocking Rising Sun? 

As for Mei, I'm just loving the idea of a Thunders gunline consisting of Archers, Fuhatsu, maybe even a Snipers or Samurai, all protected by with Mei using 2-3 vent steams per turn as necessary to dissuade incoming fire. Toshiro could give some buffs and summon up some chaff to hold the line, with Mechanized Porkchops to feed his summoning or give Mei some stepping stones to bounce around.

I feel like gunlines usually fall short because they're way too static and once models are engaged they can't shoot at them. Thunders shouldn't have any issues with being too static with all their pushes, and Archers flat out ignore engagement restrictions with their shooting. Wings of Wind alone would contribute significantly to free up the Archers if they're caught, plus Mei could knock enemies away etc. Will it win games consistently? Probably not. But it could perform well in some circumstances, especially against Gremlins & Guild. 

[InvokeChaos]

I'm digging the lynch concept. I haven't tried them with him yet because I almost always run a Samurai or Lazarus. I may have to swap them out and throw it in. Sounds like lots of fun!

[Eclipse]

 

Archers seem like they work perfectly in tandem perfectly with cheap tarpit models, and Depleted seem like the finest example of such a model. They could even shoot the Depleted to blow them up as a last resort. Their access to Rapid Fire appears to be a good use for those recycling aces that Lynch provides.

I also think that with Huggy available for free, he could be an ideal candidate for holding onto BtS sometimes. I'd probably pair it with Endless Hunger and play him further back in the field. Pretty solid control + support piece for 3ss total, and breaks the mould of always rocking Rising Sun? 

As for Mei, I'm just loving the idea of a Thunders gunline consisting of Archers, Fuhatsu, maybe even a Snipers or Samurai, all protected by with Mei using 2-3 vent steams per turn as necessary to dissuade incoming fire. Toshiro could give some buffs and summon up some chaff to hold the line, with Mechanized Porkchops to feed his summoning or give Mei some stepping stones to bounce around.

I feel like gunlines usually fall short because they're way too static and once models are engaged they can't shoot at them. Thunders shouldn't have any issues with being too static with all their pushes, and Archers flat out ignore engagement restrictions with their shooting. Wings of Wind alone would contribute significantly to free up the Archers if they're caught, plus Mei could knock enemies away etc. Will it win games consistently? Probably not. But it could perform well in some circumstances, especially against Gremlins & Guild. 

So far Archers have loved their tarpit buddies, but I have only tried to tarpit with big (50mm base) models like Ototo or Izamu so far. The Depleted are a nice touch here. I'd suggest adding something more 'pushy' to the crew if you are using Huggy as a control piece so that you pressure the enemy front lines and territory and give them less chances to try to disengage from the Depleted and go for the archers. A Samurai should be a nice combo of melee and spread damage, for example.
I think you comment on gunlines is spot on. This is why I like to mix them up with melee models or simply take shooters with good melee like the Katanaka Snipers as skirmishers. Rather than trying to win games consistently, it's more worth it to play what you enjoy and get acquainted with their roles and (dis)abilities. Then you will win games more consistently anyway

[King Of Speling]

Ran a pair last week. BtS on Toshiro for minion boosting, with Ronin to accompany. Public Demo was in the pool, so with a fast disguised Ronin and the ability to discard BtS for a final charge out of cover for the Thunder Archers made this a certain 3 pointer. Didn't need to discard BtS in the end, but it was there if needed ...

They do only work in a blob like this, for a more spread out crew (against blasts for instance) I'd take a Sniper and possibly a Samurai for ranged as they can cope as a solo model without babysitting. The ronin stays always though.