Ludvig Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Hey! I usually refrain from taking Diestro but I've recently started to oogle it and have tried it in a couple of games. It is an expensive upgrade but it is also extremely strong. My idea has been to put it on Francisco with Wade In, activate him early in turns to give his condition that gives all enemy ml attacks against him and then engage something big (preferably without soulstone access or built in for natural reasons) and take defensive stance. While very expensive the ability to automatically inflict negatives on both defence and ml is ridiculously strong since it can completely negate a strong enemy hand. I've been toying with the idea of Perdita and her Emmissary + Francisco. Perdita can use her obey to place Francisco in combat with something and then almost automatically hit with her attacks. You could probably also have some fun with the emmissary charging into a couple of models near Francisco since it can take it's attack again vs models within 4". The emmissary can also do the (0) to make Francisco heal. You'd have spent 22 SS on just two models but you would have a pretty strong deterrent in strategies that force the enemy into positioning in certain places. If you really want to go all in you could also grab Abuela so she can have Francisco pop around to another model with her (0) before shooting them in the face. Has anyone tried similar things with any success? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 I've done frank with diestro and wade in with dita and a 2 riflemen/daschel package. Its pretty fun to be on pluses while they are on negatives. It was against brewy so my opponent was bunched up too. Probably too expensive for what it did, but my opponents crew melted under those guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted June 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Sounds like dropping Dashel would keep the effectiveness about the same for significantly less stones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, Ludvig said: Sounds like dropping Dashel would keep the effectiveness about the same for significantly less stones. Sounds like he should also drop the Riflemen and take Austringers and a Pathfinder or something instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 17 minutes ago, Ludvig said: Sounds like dropping Dashel would keep the effectiveness about the same for significantly less stones. probably. In that case, I was using Daschel with vengance bullet for a secondary show of force piece as well, but otherwise he was probably extra. Daschel also pumps up the damage for the riflemen in a pretty significant way. I prefer it to 13 minutes ago, Myyrä said: Sounds like he should also drop the Riflemen and take Austringers and a Pathfinder or something instead. booooo. I'm running out of opportunities to use the riflemen. Let me believe. I don't think Diestro is worth it with austringers, but I like the pathfinder idea, trying to get blasts going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Just now, 4thstringer said: I don't think Diestro is worth it with austringers Their damage output is pretty significantly increased if they don't need to focus to get those moderates. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lusciousmccabe Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Does diestro give shooting attacks + to damage or to hit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 24 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said: Does diestro give shooting attacks + to damage or to hit? It gives against Sh attacks to all models engaged with the one carrying the upgrade (and makes that model also immune to randomization). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted June 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 A plus would be nearly useless for the stones. The big thing is that it makes it impossible to cheat for your opponent (unless they have soulstones or can activate to take defensive stance). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fauxreigner Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Yeah... I haven't run the math, but I assume that an Austringer (Sh 7) shooting at a model on will find themselves on a straight damage flip most of the time, even without cheating. Then they can reliably put out 3 damage with each shot, which is rather nice. Still not convinced that it makes Diestro worthwhile at 3ss. Its an awkward upgrade that would be a steal at 2ss (In Perdita crew at least) but feels like a stretch at 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 57 minutes ago, fauxreigner said: Yeah... I haven't run the math, but I assume that an Austringer (Sh 7) shooting at a model on will find themselves on a straight damage flip most of the time, even without cheating. Against Df 4 47% of the time, against Df 5 40%, against Df 6 34% and so on and so forth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted June 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 With a few low-middle range masks in hand I'm guessing two austringers could also become annoying. It's still not gamebreaking since it's so contained but as I said it could yield decent results in clumped strategies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Ludvig said: With a few low-middle range masks in hand I'm guessing two austringers could also become annoying. It's still not gamebreaking since it's so contained but as I said it could yield decent results in clumped strategies. The problem with Diestro isn't that it's too expensive to be useful. The problem is that it can only be put on Francisco and keeping him alive isn't too easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted June 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 47 minutes ago, Myyrä said: The problem with Diestro isn't that it's too expensive to be useful. The problem is that it can only be put on Francisco and keeping him alive isn't too easy. I found that Finesse, defensive stance and a couple of soulstones kept him alive against Langston and Johana prompted incessantly by Colette for a turn and a half. It may have been a fluke but anything that survives that is at least semi-survivable. I realize he won't stand up well to the likes of Leveticus but with this strategy one would need to play him a bit more carefully than usual, probably throwing him into melee with something after it has gone on turn 2 to swiftly delete it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Just now, Ludvig said: I found that Finesse, defensive stance and a couple of soulstones kept him alive against Langston and Johana prompted incessantly by Colette for a turn and a half. It may have been a fluke but anything that survives that is at least semi-survivable. I realize he won't stand up well to the likes of Leveticus but with this strategy one would need to play him a bit more carefully than usual, probably throwing him into melee with something after it has gone on turn 2 to swiftly delete it. Had the Colette player brought Mobile Toolkit (or Coryphee Duet) Francisco would have been dead in seconds. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted June 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 9 minutes ago, Myyrä said: Had the Colette player brought Mobile Toolkit (or Coryphee Duet) Francisco would have been dead in seconds. Yes, and the Colette player didn't in this game. Had the Colette player brought coryphee or the toolkit I would probably have endeavoured to stay away from them for that exact reason instead of walking up to them unactivated and go "hit me with my perfect counter please". I know that it isn't always super easy to avoid them with their large threat ranges, especially against Colette but it seems like you could offer something a little more constructive. Maybe blocking Francisco with models and then taking revenge on anyone who kills them would be enough, for instance creating a wall of 4ss minions or using a hunter with el mayor on it would be enough to block LoS to the coryphee (but not Langston). Maybe Francisco needs to be kept even further back before being obeyed to do enfrentate a mi. I would find it a lot more helpful to the discussion if you suggested a counter-counter to keep the list viable. In the above case I think Perdita could stand a decent chance against the Coryphee and an austringer might be able to reach out and touch the toolkit before they can cause havoc. Both were already mentioned as likely models to appear in the list and I did mention trying to wait out the heaviest counters from the safety of the backfield. It would seem a lot more like helpful advice if you formulated your suggestions differently, your last comment comes off as almost hostile towards my attempts at carrying the discussion forward. I am inexperienced with both Perdita and Diestro and haven't made this work yet. That is why my post was formulated as a request for help. You are a player with a wide range of experience and very strong track record who I would assumr could offer helpful advice beyond "never try anything new". What is your take on Perdita as a counter to the coryphee? Am I missing something obvious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 It seems I came on as more dismissing than I intended to. What I meant was, that when playing against Guild the Colette player should have expected Francisco. Mobile toolkit is a very cheap counter to his Finesse, so it should parctically always be taken if you are running a melee heavy crew. When devising strategies one should expect no less than optimal choices from ones opponent and I feel your opponent made some bad choices there. It wouldn't be particularly difficult to keep Francisco alive against most Colette crews. What would be difficult, is to keep him alive while engaging a valuable target. Perdita could quite easily dispose of Howard or Coryphee Duet, but why did you bring Diestro if Perdita is going to kill all the difficult targets without it? ...and that's usually where I realize I don't really need Diestro enough to justify spending 3ss to get it just to benefit Perdita. It might be interesting to try it in a list like this though: Guild 50ss Crew Perdita Ortega -- 2ss +Aura Ancestral - 1ss +Trick Shooting - 2ss +Vengeance Bullet - 1ss Enslaved Nephilim - 3ss Abuela Ortega - 7ss Francisco Ortega - 8ss +Wade In - 1ss +Diestro - 3ss Nino Ortega - 7ss +Hair Trigger - 1ss Santiago Ortega - 7ss +Hermanos De Armas - 1ss Watcher - 4ss Watcher - 4ss Perdita and Franc will move ahead the rest of the crew. Franc engages stuff and Perdita then companions and moves in for the kill. Watchers can then remove cover from the other engaged models (or some totally different models) and the rest of the crew can mow them down. The problem with this list is that SS pool is very low and I'm still not 100% sure I wouldn't be better off without Diestro. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted June 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Thank you for that very constructive advice! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryin Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 I do feel it serves the rest of the family more than Perdita herself. Nino, or perhaps Abuela could be better served by a Diestro'd frank. While Perdita takes care of bigger threats, You could use a Frank-Abuela combo to do some clean up work or area denial. certainly would make Abuela's shotgun more potent or maybe let you get Santiago's triggers off easier. im a bit on the fence myself. I WANT it to work, but I am not sure it's worth it. what about crews that don't necessarily have Perdita leading? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 5 hours ago, Ryin said: what about crews that don't necessarily have Perdita leading? McCabe seems like the only viable choice there. The list could look like this if you go really elite: Guild 50ss Crew Lucas McCabe -- 5ss +Promises - 1ss +Glowing Saber - 2ss +Elixir Of Life - 2ss Luna - 4ss Brutal Emissary - 10ss +Conflux Of Exploration - 0ss +Badge of Speed Francisco Ortega - 8ss +Diestro - 3ss +Wade In - 1ss Guild Austringer - 6ss Sidir Alchibal - 9ss +By Your Side - 1ss You could also take a more minion heavy list, but it would be even more difficult to keep Franc alive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryin Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 If you've got things like Show of Force and strats that pool crews in one area, then maybe that would be a decent list. McCabe and Luna can do the scheme running by themselves, plus, warning bark is nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarSol Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Diestro is a fine example of the limitations of the upgrade system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatt Manta Posted August 10, 2016 Report Share Posted August 10, 2016 Has anyone had wins using Franc/Diestro with Sonnia/reincarnation and witchling Handler/Stalkers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgs Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Diestro with the emissary's built in trigger to shoot again is a great way to mop up enemy mobs and/or clear a nice space on the board. 4" from a 50mm base is a surprising distance. Diestro has never let me down when I've taken it. On 10/08/2016 at 11:08 PM, Phatt Manta said: Has anyone had wins using Franc/Diestro with Sonnia/reincarnation and witchling Handler/Stalkers? Diestro doesn't help Sonnia as it only affects Sh attack actions. Can't comment on the Handlers with Frank as I've never used them together. Get some games using them and let us know! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted August 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 Never got around to playing that list, I got stuck bNging my head against the Lucius wall before vacation happened. I'll try to put Diestro into my next couple of games and not foul it up by letting Frankie run alone up the other flank from the rest of the crew this time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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