Grappling a little too rules light?

[Shadowdragon]

It's nice that grappling was added as a new skill in Into the Steam (although it probably should have been in the core book) but it seems to be missing some rules. I'm not sure if they're in a different part of the book and i just didn't notice them, or if they actually don't exist. Currently the rules for grappling don't seem to take Might or Ht into consideration. They also seem to be lacking rules for escaping a grapple once you've been Pinned. As it stands I'm imagining a terror tot being able to grapple a peacekeeper with no penalties due to the peacekeeper being much stronger and much bigger, and then being able to keep the peacekeeper paralyzed basically forever with no way for it to break free. Is this really how it's supposed to work, or am I missing something? How did this not come up during playtesting?

[Omenbringer]

It was mentioned by Mason that these rules might be expanded quite a bit in a future Ten Thunders themed book.

I would like to see a combat specialized book that introduces a host of optional rules for improving the static combat resolution system by adding in some better randomness.

[Shadowdragon]

Hopefully once all the faction books come out there will be a Collected Edition of the rules or something that gathers all the core rules together in one place. Having the rules for combat in one book, the grapple skill in another, and expanded rules for grappling in a third book seems very clunky. I can also see a lot of people getting annoyed at having to buy three books just to be able to grapple someone. Oh well, guess I'll just need to homebrew some grappling rules for now.

[Mason]

Grappling functions as intended. If there's a Terror Tot that's grappling with a Peacekeeper and paralyzing it, then the Tot has likely managed to get a good grip on some critical component of the Peacekeeper, forcing it to temporarily lock up. It's the quintessential 'little creatures hanging off the big thing and ripping it apart' scene.

[Shadowdragon]

Yea, but at a certain point size and strength do matter. A single Ht 1 gremlin should have a much harder time grappling and pinning a mature nephilim than the other way around, assuming they both happen to be of equal combat skill. Also, there still aren't any rules for breaking the pin, which is the more serious problem. Was it really intended to have it so once someone is pinned they're pinned forever with no hope of escape?

Edit: A rule for escaping a pin can be very quick and easy: If a character is pinned all he can do is attempt to escape. The character makes either a Might or Speed flip (acting character's choice). The TN for this flip is determined by the Might or Speed of the grappler (grappler's choice). If the acting character wins he is simply Slow instead of Paralyzed.

[Omenbringer]

Well both of these seem easy to "ad hoc."

In the case of different sized combatants you could apply a or modifier, though I dont necessarily agree that the combatants size is a major determining factor in grappling. A trained grappler should know how to exploit the size differences negating any advantage (take a look at the old UFC fights before they introduced weight classes to see some great examples of this). Differences in Might could be worth considering (though again a well set hold is exceedingly difficult to muscle out of). Here again though grappling is about leverage, torque, and extension/ compression, muscles don't function well in these circumstances, that is why the holds are so potent once set in . At the most I would impose a modifier to the TN of no more than 1/2 the differential in their Might values. Personally I think Grace is the more applicable Physical Aspect with Flexible being the most appropriate Skill. Grappling is not as much about strength as people think except perhaps in Greco Roman wrestling. The only caveat I would include is when one combatant has a pneumatic limb that is being held or employed. Metal and steam can generate and sustain a lot more power than simple bone and muscle.

I think your idea for escaping is good though would use Grace instead of Speed. You could also just use an attack with Pugilism, Martial Arts, or Grappling skills to force the escape. This is a very common method of breaking holds where Strength or Flexibility have failed. One of the most common methods of breaking a deeply set Arm Bar is to try and lift your opponent up and drop them on the back of their heads (a great example of this can be seen in the Royce Gracie vs Kimo fight from the early days of the UFC). Many counters to holds (talking combat techniques here) are begun with strikes to exposed or vulnerable nerves followed by un-balancing. Essentially if the "pinned" combatant manages to inflict damage from an attack then the pin is broken and they escape it.

[Snoutopus]

I actually pare it down further. I've allowed either Pugilism or Martial Arts to be used instead, and don't use a separate grappling skill in my games. If any of the players wanted the skill triggers from Grappling, I'd let them just apply them to one of the other combat skills, as appropriate. 

Generally speaking, Through the Breach plays very quickly and smoothly. I don't see a reason to make one particular combat subsystem that much more complicated, unless you were running a game of the Malifaux Wrestling Association. 

...Though now I rather want to do that. 

[Omenbringer]

2 hours ago, Snoutopus said:

Generally speaking, Through the Breach plays very quickly and smoothly. I don't see a reason to make one particular combat subsystem that much more complicated, unless you were running a game of the Malifaux Wrestling Association. 

...Though now I rather want to do that. 

It depends largely on how you approach the game; if you are running it primarily as a story driven game then the system is good (this is where the game shines IMO), if however you want something more combat focused then the system does have plenty of failings. It sounds as if the OP wants something a bit more combat focused, in which case I would recommend looking at some of the other threads containing recommendations on how to do this.

[zeeblee]

My one worry with more and more books coming out is that the rule system will turn into something like Hackmaster (the far end of the rules heavy spectrum that I've dealt with).  It doesn't need to remain as light as Dogs in the Vineyard or other narrative-first games, but I really hate rules bloat.

[kelrodin]

On 6/18/2016 at 1:28 AM, Shadowdragon said:

Yea, but at a certain point size and strength do matter. A single Ht 1 gremlin should have a much harder time grappling and pinning a mature nephilim than the other way around, assuming they both happen to be of equal combat skill. 

If they both have equal combat numbers, wouldn't that imply either a beastly terror of a Gremlin, or a mewling lump of a Mature Neph, or both? In that kind of case, it makes sense that a Gremlin could "pin" a Nephilim, maybe by biting at his Achilles tendon, or riding his horns while poking at his eyes or something.

[Shadowdragon]

The size and strength thing may be a bit too gritty for a system like TTB, and I can live without any of that, but having no way to escape from a pin seems like a severe oversight. Hell, with the way pinned is worded, if you get pinned and the grappler is killed then you are literally paralyzed forever with no way of getting rid of it unless someone else has a way to cleanse conditions from you.