Misleading resilience about Molly on PMF?

[Pinocchio]

I was reading through Molly's Masterful dead entry on PMF and I can't help but notice there might be something a bit off.

It implies that you use Masterful Dead to reduce the damage taken down to 1, and then you stone it to prevent the last damage.

After reading her card and the rulebook, shouldn't it be the other way around (Doesn't damage prevention takes place BEFORE applying the damage, and then Masterful Dead takes place AFTER Molly suffers damage?)?

I could be wrong or am I missing something?

[lusciousmccabe]

I believe it is confusingly the case that damage prevention happens after suffering damage but before applying it. So whatever damage reduction you have from Triggers, Conditions or Abilities applies (even if it's an after damaging Trigger) and then you prevent whatever damage remains using Soulstones.

[asrian]

5 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I believe it is confusingly the case that damage prevention happens after suffering damage but before applying it. So whatever damage reduction you have from Triggers, Conditions or Abilities applies (even if it's an after damaging Trigger) and then you prevent whatever damage remains using Soulstones.

This.

Example: A master or henchman with Armor +1 takes 2 damage. 1 is prevented from armor, 1 gets through. The model then can spend a soul stone to prevent the remaining one.

Example: Molly. She gets hit with a Red Joker hit, with 3 critical rams due to stoning, from Lady J for a total of 12 damage. Molly has declared her Masterful Dead trigger. She discards two cards and reduces all damage given to her (12 in this case) down to 1. She officially takes 1 damage, which she now can spend a soul stone to prevent damage taken (reducing it down to 0) and proceeds to giggle and skip in circles around Lady J.

Note: While her Masterful Dead trigger is powerful, it is also costly in cards in hand. A canny opponent will concentrate fire on her, stripping your hand, and then still come in swinging/shooting at you in the same turn to do more damage and/or finish you off. It's how I killed Molly turn 2 one time when I was on the receiving end of her. The opponent got too aggressive verses my Collodi crew. I proceeded to obey (My Will ability) a Stitched Together to knock the crap out of her multiple times. Next turn I got initiative, did it again 3 times with Collodi, then chain activated to the Stitched and did it two more times. Needless to say the Molly player ran out of cards fast between the trigger and trying to beat me in the duels to stay alive. It didn't end well for Molly.

Lesson I learned for when I eventually started playing Molly: You can be aggressive with her, but don't be overly aggressive. Make sure you have a way to get her out of danger, be it Call Belle from Sybelle, or using her 0AP Whispers of Future Flesh to have a belle lure her out of needless dangerous positions.

[solkan]

Quote

Df/Wp()Masterful Dead: After this model suffers damage, it may discard two cards to reduce the damage to 1.

I think the simplest explanation is this:  If you don't believe in time travel paradoxes, then there isn't any function difference between "After this model suffers damage" and "When this model suffers damage" in that sentence.

From the Damage and Wounds rules:

Quote

If damage is modified by a static value (such as the Armor Ability, or a Trigger), the final damage after the damage flip is modified.

where Armor says stuff like this:

Quote

Armor +2: Reduce all damage suffered by this model by +2, to a minimum of 1.

In other words, in this case the particular phrasing of "After this model suffers damage" or "When this model suffers damage" doesn't make a difference because it's a trigger modifying the damage taken.  You're not expected to resolve as:

- Figure out how much damage Molly suffers

- Apply other damage reduction and damage prevention mechanisms

- Apply damage to Molly

- Apply Masterful Dead, and retroactively reduce the damage you've just recorded by 1.  (And have fun arguing about what the previous wound value was in the middle of a tournament!  )

That would be silly, no game designer is going to expect you to do that.

 

The same thing goes for Tara's Through the Hole trigger, and the Taelor's 'After succeeding' triggers that modify how the damage is applied.  The Damage and Wounds rules have more say in the timing than the trigger rules do.