Oiran vs Performer

[10T Simon]

I'm struggling to find a situation when I would select an Oiran over a performer. Everything the Performer does just seems so much better! Even with Smoke and Shadows and/or Hidden Agenda. Hidden Agenda I feel you need two Oiran and a range hitter to carry the upgrade which is probably 20 SS worth of your crew! The bonus to Will Power is nice and they seem slightly more survivable but I can see so many more uses for the Performer, especially playing with Misaki, where she generally wants to hold on to her high crows...

 

Any thoughts re the Oiran vs Performer?

[decker_cky]

Oiran are underrated generalists, whereas performers are great at midfield interacts and luring. Hidden agenda is great if you already have a ranged model with a free slot, and want some good generalist models. Don't think of Oiran as lure focused models - look at how much more they have on their cards, then look at how much they gain from hidden agenda. 

[10T Simon]

With 10T what model would you generally put Hidden Agenda on?

[Patzer]

Yeah, Oirans aren't great as lure-bots. However, it is nice to have, and with Ca 8 you don't really need to waist high crows on it. It can be a great distraction. 

Disguise is the main reason why they really shine. Opponents needs to waist AP to get to them, and as long as they are positioned properly they will be quite hard to catch. With Hidden Agenda, they get a ton of extra efficiency, which opens up a ton of potential for them. 

To me their main competition aren't Performers, it is Ten Thunder Brothers. For 5ss they have a ton of utility, staying power, and scheme-shenanigans. 

[Patzer]

2 minutes ago, 10T Simon said:

With 10T what model would you generally put Hidden Agenda on?

Many seem to put it on ranged models like Fuhatsu, Envy, etc. 

[10T Simon]

Thanks all. Playing a game tomorrow, just painted two up so will give them a run out...

[BigHammer]

I joke with a friend of mine that hates Oiran that I only ever use them in joke crews, but secretly I absolutely love them (you could say that I have a hidden agenda... but please don't). I've discovered that they really love having the Shadow Emissary supporting them, especially with the Conflux of Shadow on it to give all of their attacks + flips, which even makes their Lure semi-reliable, when spammed. They use all three of Focus, Defensive and Poison on a regular basis, so the Emissary's Aspect of the Dragon action can boost their performance in several ways.

I've had the most success from them recently in a Lynch crew. Lynch or Huggy are a good fit for Hidden Agenda, and the Oiran can get Defensive 2 for 1 AP and no cards if you have an ace in hand, making them pretty robust, especially if you use Dragon's Scales as the Emissary's aspect to give them damage reduction as well. Lynch appreciates the odd friendly Lure as well, since he's a slow bugger at the best of times. Having the Shadow Conflux on the Emissary is also a bit of a coup for Lynch, as he can use its (0) action to draw two cards then discard and keep two aces, since it's during a friendly model's activation, which can make Final Debt very dangerous indeed. Not to mention the Emissary can use the same ability to chuck and keep an ace for its free Focus +2 at the start of its activation. There's a lot of synergy going on there that leads to a lot of dead things in the enemy crew, which is always nice.

[RarerMonsters]

WP +1 in an aura is extremely useful. Tons of attacks target WP and tons of models cause Terror checks. Otherwise just have your Oiran do the basic tasks that any model can do (dropping early schemes to set up for Manipulating them later, etc) and stay around the center. Your Opponent can't charge in to take them down and in a pinch you can get a Lure with the right cards.

Also Hidden Agenda is great to throw on but don't think you're turning them into kill machines since their attacks are still lame.

[Rurouni Benshin]

11 hours ago, 10T Simon said:

With 10T what model would you generally put Hidden Agenda on?

I use Fuhatsu as well, but have from time to time put it on Misaki, pending on the faction I'm facing. 

[newsun]

I have not tried it, but with Mc you can toss them a sabre to take use of the Cg 8 and do more than slap fight.

[10T Simon]

Thanks guys!

I used two in a Misaki Crew (With Hidden Agenda on Misaki) vs a Lady J guild crew.

I played
Misaki (Hidden Agenda, Recalled Training, Disguise)
Yamaziko (Smoke & Shadows, Smoke Bombs)
Sniper
Shang
Shadow Effigy
2x Oiran
2 x Torakage

We were playing old strats and schemes and We got Squatters rights. I also took Line in the Sand and distract. I thought with fast Oiran I could use distract, take a focused strike and then go defensive.

My opponent played
Lady J, A peacekeeper, 2x Executioners, Governors Proxy, 2 x Austringers. I think he wanted to use the peace keeper and executioners abilities to disrupt my scheming.

I obviously out activated my opponent. I ended up winning 7-3 with no points for distract haha. My sniper and Torkage were the MVPs and I used Misaki to take out his softer targets and run schemes. I managed to avoid lady J who got a bit held up by my Oiran and shadow effigy but with her ability to remove conditions and with me not aloud to leave her engagement area the Oiran were quite useless even with the Fast and Focussed they were getting most turns. AAlso the fact the defensive condition comes off at the end of the turn didn't help... They both died, they did suck AP from Lady J and her cronies but I felt the Shadow Effigy was better and I feel there job could have been better served by other models. Their +1 WP helped against all the terrifying a little but maybe guild just isn't the opponent for them. I think I prefer the look of the TT Bros, who seem somewhat more reliable, especially in an interact heavy strat and scheme pool...

In the end I feel like 10 SS and an upgrade slot could have been spent more effectively...

[BigHammer]

Defensive lasts until a model's next activation, not the end of the turn. If there's any one thing the Oiran look good at on paper and are terrible at on the table it's tanking. Df 5 and Wd 6 do not go far, even with defensive +2. If you want models that do that, 10T brothers are far superior choices.

[Ludvig]

4 hours ago, BigHammer said:

Defensive lasts until a model's next activation, not the end of the turn. If there's any one thing the Oiran look good at on paper and are terrible at on the table it's tanking. Df 5 and Wd 6 do not go far, even with defensive +2. If you want models that do that, 10T brothers are far superior choices.

Generally true. Not sure if the Oiran have some special action that applies it? Wastrels for example have their defensive from taking two walks in a turn, since that doesn't specify an end point it goes away at the end of the turn.

[BigHammer]

6 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Generally true. Not sure if the Oiran have some special action that applies it? Wastrels for example have their defensive from taking two walks in a turn, since that doesn't specify an end point it goes away at the end of the turn.

The first time they take the action they get an extra stack of it, but it still costs (1) and a card for them. Shenlong can make it a (0) for +2, or Lynch can let them keep the card if it's an ace, but aside from that there aren't any other special benefits/cheats for their defensive condition.

[Ludvig]

8 hours ago, BigHammer said:

The first time they take the action they get an extra stack of it, but it still costs (1) and a card for them. Shenlong can make it a (0) for +2, or Lynch can let them keep the card if it's an ace, but aside from that there aren't any other special benefits/cheats for their defensive condition.

Still tough to compete with the Brothers there.

As far as the competition between merc-ing in a performer or an oiran into a faction where you can't use the buffgrade for Oiran I'll throw in my vote for the performer. The crow trigger on the lure is simply brutal, even if you don't have that 11+ crow in hand your opponent kind of has to assume you do until you've activated the performer (and any models able to obey it). The ability to remove markers at range is also amazing in a lot of games.

[10T Simon]

On 2016/02/24 at 9:25 AM, Ludvig said:

Still tough to compete with the Brothers there.

As far as the competition between merc-ing in a performer or an oiran into a faction where you can't use the buffgrade for Oiran I'll throw in my vote for the performer. The crow trigger on the lure is simply brutal, even if you don't have that 11+ crow in hand your opponent kind of has to assume you do until you've activated the performer (and any models able to obey it). The ability to remove markers at range is also amazing in a lot of games.

Yeah I kind of feel in most situations TT Bros or Performers can do what the Oiran do a bit better... Will run them a few more time to see, I've only run them the once...
 

[OneLittleThunder]

I agree that in most cases, whatever you want the Oiran to do, there is usually something else for a similar cost that does it better. Durable tanking? 10T Brothers. Lure? Performers. Scheme running? Take your pick (Brothers, Tengu, Torakage...). That said, the Oiran can be decent generalists if you need a little of everything...but I haven't been in that situation often.

One place that a pack of Oiran might be useful is with the new Occupy Their Turf scheme, or maybe Public Demonstration. Have Yamaziko (or Misaki) carry Smoke & Shadows, vanish three Oiran via Shadow Stride, and have them reappear at the end of the turn in the perfect position to score. That said, that's 23 SS worth of models and upgrade for 3 points, not to mention needing a lot of mid-to-high Masks in a single turn...but once they've scored, they can still be useful for scheme running, tanking, luring, etc. Probably not the best use of stones, but maybe worth considering.

[Skitt_Happens]

I've just started using Oiran recently, not to great success yet, but something occurs to me: why aren't we using a trick I'm sure we've all seen resser players do? Lure our own stuff!

There's often times when I've had Misaki end up in a fight she doesn't want to be in - for the sake of keeping a 4 in my hand I'd love to be able to yank her out. Particularly with the despised build. The extra range of the Oiran, even if it is harder to cast, is useful here.

The second implication I thought of is with the Misaki / Yu "Wind of Death" manoeuvre. What happens with me usually is that Sensei Yu airburst's and then Mighty Gust's Misaki, and stalks her pray. Misaki then goes and obliterates the target that was initially 20" away with 5 attacks at  attack and damage. Problem is, Misaki is now 18" away from Yu, who is probably still in your backfield not doing an awful lot. Yu has that massive 7" walk, but always seems to have better things to do with his AP. Enter the Oiran. Was thinking this:

Misaki - Stalking Bisento, Hidden Agenda

Yu - Wandering River Style

Oiran

=18 stones.

Yu activates, pushes/fasts Misaki and stalks victim.

Misaki activates and murders the chosen victim - the Oiran watches on and gets fast and focused. 

Oiran walks twice and turns round to lure Yu a massive 7" up the board. Best if you have 4 in hand, but if not it's worth top decking it with the  (rough maths: 41% chance of success on 2 cards). While Misaki does like crows, she won't miss a 4-7.

Yu is now much further up the field, ready to rinse repeat on turn 2!

Hidden Agenda can be moved to another damage dealer (I like Sidir, Fuhatsu or even Chiaki) and then build the rest of your list to suit.