Recommendations against Raspi using Lynch?

[qoob]

Hello my beloved community! 

I have some big issues playing against Rasputina with my Lynch crew (TT). Her Ice Mirror is blocking almost everything. The biggest problem is that I cannot target anything with lynch because he has only 8 range. What do you recommend against her? Beckoners maybe to lure them out of Ice Mirror range? I have no clue at all

My list:

Lynch (recalled training, woke up, rising sun), huggy (addict, recalled training), Emissary (conflux), 2 TT brothers, 1 katanaka sniper, 2 illuminated. 

Thank you in advance!! 

[Abbazabba1920]

Smoke grenades on huggy would be nice, alongside the beckoners to remove and take apart models that are trying to be ice mirrors or depending on the end your activation upgrade. Samurai can be nice if your opponent stays mostly in theme as most of raspy's stuff (snowstorm excluded) have average or below average df. The armor +2 helps a lot, too, provided you don't stay too close to acolytes. Sue for the -flips to ca actions could help as well. Chiaki can be good to get rid of slow and paralyze you may get with a possible heal and may give slow, as well in turn. Kang can help if he's construct heavy and help keep huggy as healthy as possible with his (0) while ensuring your illuminated and beckoners are safe from the horror duel they'd have to make.

i would recommend making careful note of his upgrades and models alongside positioning. Does he have armor of December? If so, then tying up will likely not be possible. Snowstorm in the crew? Then his (0) may be used to position raspy early, so luring him and killing him with lynch and huggy would probably be best. Look at his crew and perceive synergies, then see what you can do to undo those synergies.

if terrain permits, a couple archers with an upgrade holder about could be terrible for raspy's crew to face. As you hide behind terrain and blow things up at the end of the turn when hands are low.

[qoob]

7 hours ago, Abbazabba1920 said:

Smoke grenades on huggy would be nice, alongside the beckoners to remove and take apart models that are trying to be ice mirrors or depending on the end your activation upgrade. Samurai can be nice if your opponent stays mostly in theme as most of raspy's stuff (snowstorm excluded) have average or below average df. The armor +2 helps a lot, too, provided you don't stay too close to acolytes. Sue for the -flips to ca actions could help as well. Chiaki can be good to get rid of slow and paralyze you may get with a possible heal and may give slow, as well in turn. Kang can help if he's construct heavy and help keep huggy as healthy as possible with his (0) while ensuring your illuminated and beckoners are safe from the horror duel they'd have to make.

i would recommend making careful note of his upgrades and models alongside positioning. Does he have armor of December? If so, then tying up will likely not be possible. Snowstorm in the crew? Then his (0) may be used to position raspy early, so luring him and killing him with lynch and huggy would probably be best. Look at his crew and perceive synergies, then see what you can do to undo those synergies.

if terrain permits, a couple archers with an upgrade holder about could be terrible for raspy's crew to face. As you hide behind terrain and blow things up at the end of the turn when hands are low.

Would you recommend staying behind with lynch and Huggy and waiting for them to come at me? Lynch dies almost every game because i am too greedy. 

[Adran]

You can prevent models being used as Ice Mirrors by engaging the model. Models such as Hungering Darkness can in theory do this from more than 2" away, so wouldn't be included in randomisation if Rasputina tried to shoot her former ice mirror. 

Beckoners are also a good way to stop her Ice mirrors being where she wants them. 

But by far the best way to trouble Rasputina is to engage her, then she can't cast any of her good spells. Hungering Darkness can reach her from 15" away, ( More if you can use his casting expert on a Beckoner to lure him closer), and if she has the shattered Mirror upgrade (which I'm guessing she does, as without it she can't get triggers through Ice Mirror so her spells are much less scary) she struggles to disengage.  

 

Lynch can easily walk twice and shoot something. Or walk once, focus and shoot something. That can be enough to kill an Ice Gamin in one shot. If you are findign Lynch dyign every game, then you might be playing too agressive with him.  But If his death serves your purpose, then let him die. I probably lose my master in over half my games, and win most of those games, because my opponent has been busy killing my master and not able to earn VPs. 

 

And Finally, the best advice against Blasts is don't bunch upi your crew. If you don't have 2 models in Blast Range, Rasputinas Damage output drastically falls. 

[Sordid Strumpet]

Huggy isn't the best to engage her because if she remembered to bring a Ht 3 mirror like Snow Storm, she'll be hanging out behind some nice blocking ht 2 terrain so can't be charged by most things. Furthermore, engaging her only works if your opponent hasn't planned for it. If they brought snow storm or a performer or something with pushes, you'll have to take that out first.

I would use Lynch's card manipulation to make sure your opponent doesn't get to straight flips all that often. Using beckoners to lure stuff away from Ice Mirror range, out of line of sight or into engagement is a solid choice, as is using Huggy's obey as a more flexible way of messing with her Ice Mirror network.

Against the low Df that frozen heart tends to have, you can fairly easily put brilliance on stuff and then shred it with Lynch himself or illuminated.

For some real advice, though, it would be very helpful if you could post a battle report or a summary of a game outlining lists and in broad strokes who did what. And importantly - where did everything go wrong?

Lynch's no-cheating aura (or pseudo no-cheating) should at least somewhat limit how much damage he himself takes. Be aware though, there is a fair bit of explosive demise in Rasputina's crews. I've killed Lynch before by whacking him, getting him down to a few wounds and then cheating to kill my model, blow up and kill Lynch. Especially Snow Storm, as a very nasty thing to do with them is once they get low enough, just explode them and take a key target on low wounds out.

Of course Snow Storm has a heal trigger so won't much care about being damaged by cheating anyway.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Huggy isn't the best to engage her because if she remembered to bring a Ht 3 mirror like Snow Storm, she'll be hanging out behind some nice blocking ht 2 terrain so can't be charged by most things. Furthermore, engaging her only works if your opponent hasn't planned for it. If they brought snow storm or a performer or something with pushes, you'll have to take that out first.

Surely thats a good reason why Huggy is a good model to engage. It can ignore the blocking terrain fairly easily to engage her thanks to Incorporeal, so 2 walks and its 3" engagement range are all pretty good. 

(although if she is hidden from everything except snowstorm, then engaging snowstorm will probably  also upset her plans.)

Yes she probably has ways to escape engagement, but most of them are performed by a different model, so you have a chance to react. The value of that will depend hugely on on-board placement, and turn stage, but it is generally helpful to make your opponent have to react based on what you've just done, than let them do what they like. 

 

 

[Sordid Strumpet]

True, But Rasputina has an infinite loop melee attack which is likely to shred huggy with its low Df, or cost you lots of stones. Or Snow Storm wil shoot Ice Tornado into the fight, push her out and damage Huggy.

I agree that it is usually more efficient to go after her favourite ice Mirror and engage that. Huggy can weather normal damage fairly well after all.

[Adran]

If I remember Biting chill is 1/2/2 with an after damaging trigger, that needs a suit isn't it? its also only 2" range, so possibly not able to be cast, plus 1 stone that prevents all the damage ends the attack, and its a (0), so It ending once, and its over. 

I've used it to kill Ikyru, but Generally I've found its not likely to kill very much. If I was Tina I would try it, as with a lot of luck you kill Huggy, but I wouldn't ever expect it to work.  Qoob Uses returning huggy, so his death isn't quite so painful. 

And if your opponent is using Armour of December on Rasputina, then placing Huggy in base contact with her will mean she needs 2 AP to disengage, as the 3" push isn't enough to get her clear.  (I know this is the opposite of what I'm saying above about Biting Chill. There isn't 1 right answer all the time. You need to know the game state at the time to be able to say which is best). 

 

[D_acolyte]

22 hours ago, qoob said:

Hello my beloved community! 

My list:

Lynch (recalled training, woke up, rising sun), huggy (addict, recalled training), Emissary (conflux), 2 TT brothers, 1 katanaka sniper, 2 illuminated. 

Thank you in advance!! 

Well first I am not seeing why you have rising sun and addict when you not so much made for handing out brilliance or leveraging these two upgrades well. I love 52 chard pick up with lynch but I often play him as a Neverborn though I did well with him as a ten thunder mostly by focusing on cards or brilliance and not trying to split it.

Models you have that can give brilliance: Lynch, huggy, 2 illuminated with range

Models that benefit from Addict: 2 illuminated

With woke up you will probably activate Lynch last to get the cards so that leaves the illuminated and huggy that can give brilliance. The sequencing with this crew is odd. some flow thoughts: huggy charges gives brilence to X model and then an illuminated charged in but that I feel under utilizes the illuminated or and illuminated shoots to try and trigger brilliance and then the other goes in or huggy and the emissary form your spear tip and the illuminated work on the flank but then you are not using addict well as most often the illuminated will be vs non brillianced models.

My advice is to either drop the addict and rising sun or the TT brothers for something fly. This list has too many mind, thank you Karate Kid movies.

What I would probably do:

Lynch (addict or blot out the sky, 52 card, rising sun), huggy (smoke bomb, recalled training), beckoner, 2 tengu, 1 ten thunder archer, 1 illuminated, 2 depleted

Or

Lynch (blot out the sky, expert cheater, eternal hunger), huggy (smoke bomb, recalled training), 2 tengu, 2 ten thunder archer, 2 ten thunder brother, samurai (take your pick of there zero point upgrades)

one makes better use of brilliance where the other has some great stopping power. The archer 2 action ignores LOS so vs pillars they are great. The tengu have flight and should move to engage enemies to stop there use of ice mirrors. I am only so so on emissaries and I do not thing he gives enough bang for your buck here in other situations sure.

 

[Sordid Strumpet]

12 hours ago, Adran said:

If I remember Biting chill is 1/2/2 with an after damaging trigger, that needs a suit isn't it? its also only 2" range, so possibly not able to be cast, plus 1 stone that prevents all the damage ends the attack, and its a (0), so It ending once, and its over. 

I've used it to kill Ikyru, but Generally I've found its not likely to kill very much. If I was Tina I would try it, as with a lot of luck you kill Huggy, but I wouldn't ever expect it to work.  Qoob Uses returning huggy, so his death isn't quite so painful. 

And if your opponent is using Armour of December on Rasputina, then placing Huggy in base contact with her will mean she needs 2 AP to disengage, as the 3" push isn't enough to get her clear.  (I know this is the opposite of what I'm saying above about Biting Chill. There isn't 1 right answer all the time. You need to know the game state at the time to be able to say which is best). 

 

Fair point. Gets even easier with Aether connection I guess. But if you're planning on engaging her, I'd definitely try to make sure to either block pushes or eliminate pushing/placing models first.

[Yvarre]

I'm assuming here that whatever the schemes and strats are, Rasputina is developing her position so that she has ice mirrors covering large portions of the board, making a dead zone for your advancing models who come in to try to score points or kill things.  I'm picturing a nice fan of Acolytes, Silent Ones, Gamin, etc. all giving her a wide choice of targets in your crew.  Somehow, disruption needs to happen for you to get in and score points whilst keeping your crew alive.  So, where do you need models to be to rack up vp?  What is she probably going to do to score vp?  Is there enough cover and open space for fast scheme runners to sneak in and plant evidence, breakthrough, etc?  Can Huggy get to Raspy and tie her up so that your other models can focus on a couple of mirrors?  Does she have a particularly weak flank that you can concentrate on to gain more board control whilst not clumping up too much?  Is Lynch even the best choice of master for the strat and scheme pool?

Movement tricks from Beckoners or models like Graves and Senseii Yu can help other models get in the face of mirrors faster or make the mirrors come to you.  Beckoners are real nice for making models come to Lynch to die so he doesn't have to get up into Raspy's threat range.  In cases like this where large portions of the board can have an unholy ice hell of master blast damage, keeping flexibility for your Beckoners and other models to position to best exploit weaknesses in your opponent's piece development is essential.  I often bring at least 1 Beckoner but against crews or on strats where positioning is super important I'll bring 2.  Here, 2 each deployed for maximum coverage (i.e. each 6 inches on either side of the center on standard deployment) will give you a large coverage zone to lure away ice mirrors which have developed.  Chances are good that something will walk into range of at least one of the Beckoners, and Graves can help move the other or Huggy to get them into range of something. 

Here, hanging back a bit for the first couple turns and dismantling Raspy's engine will probably keep your crew alive for the long game.  Once you've gained the upper hand in activations, it will be alot easier to pick opportune targets and score points with a weakened Rasputina.  Though picking schemes that you don't need models to survive for can mitigate problems if she starts to dominate as well.

[qoob]

21 hours ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Huggy isn't the best to engage her because if she remembered to bring a Ht 3 mirror like Snow Storm, she'll be hanging out behind some nice blocking ht 2 terrain so can't be charged by most things. Furthermore, engaging her only works if your opponent hasn't planned for it. If they brought snow storm or a performer or something with pushes, you'll have to take that out first.

I would use Lynch's card manipulation to make sure your opponent doesn't get to straight flips all that often. Using beckoners to lure stuff away from Ice Mirror range, out of line of sight or into engagement is a solid choice, as is using Huggy's obey as a more flexible way of messing with her Ice Mirror network.

Against the low Df that frozen heart tends to have, you can fairly easily put brilliance on stuff and then shred it with Lynch himself or illuminated.

For some real advice, though, it would be very helpful if you could post a battle report or a summary of a game outlining lists and in broad strokes who did what. And importantly - where did everything go wrong?

Lynch's no-cheating aura (or pseudo no-cheating) should at least somewhat limit how much damage he himself takes. Be aware though, there is a fair bit of explosive demise in Rasputina's crews. I've killed Lynch before by whacking him, getting him down to a few wounds and then cheating to kill my model, blow up and kill Lynch. Especially Snow Storm, as a very nasty thing to do with them is once they get low enough, just explode them and take a key target on low wounds out.

Of course Snow Storm has a heal trigger so won't much care about being damaged by cheating anyway.

Hello Sordid Strumpet! Sorry for the late response.
Here is the Raspi list:

Rasputina (Decembers Pawn, Shattered Heart, Child of December)
Ice Golem (Sub Zero)
Wendigo 
2 December Acolytes 
3 Ice Gamin
 

We had squatters rights with a line in the sand, assassinate, frame for murder, breakthrough, protect territory and plant explosives (but I'm not really sure about the last two schemes). Unfortunately I've chosen breakthrough and frame for murder (Frame for murder on Huggy went really well). He had Assassinate, and he killed Lynch really fast (in the 2nd turn). In the managed to kill my scheme runners really quick (I had control of one scheme marker).

On turn 5 I had only one TT brother and one Illuminated left - he had Raspi, Ice Golem and two Gemins left.

The end score was 9:2 for Rasputina

I hope this helps a bit.

[qoob]

16 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

Well first I am not seeing why you have rising sun and addict when you not so much made for handing out brilliance or leveraging these two upgrades well. I love 52 chard pick up with lynch but I often play him as a Neverborn though I did well with him as a ten thunder mostly by focusing on cards or brilliance and not trying to split it.

Models you have that can give brilliance: Lynch, huggy, 2 illuminated with range

Models that benefit from Addict: 2 illuminated

With woke up you will probably activate Lynch last to get the cards so that leaves the illuminated and huggy that can give brilliance. The sequencing with this crew is odd. some flow thoughts: huggy charges gives brilence to X model and then an illuminated charged in but that I feel under utilizes the illuminated or and illuminated shoots to try and trigger brilliance and then the other goes in or huggy and the emissary form your spear tip and the illuminated work on the flank but then you are not using addict well as most often the illuminated will be vs non brillianced models.

My advice is to either drop the addict and rising sun or the TT brothers for something fly. This list has too many mind, thank you Karate Kid movies.

What I would probably do:

Lynch (addict or blot out the sky, 52 card, rising sun), huggy (smoke bomb, recalled training), beckoner, 2 tengu, 1 ten thunder archer, 1 illuminated, 2 depleted

Or

Lynch (blot out the sky, expert cheater, eternal hunger), huggy (smoke bomb, recalled training), 2 tengu, 2 ten thunder archer, 2 ten thunder brother, samurai (take your pick of there zero point upgrades)

one makes better use of brilliance where the other has some great stopping power. The archer 2 action ignores LOS so vs pillars they are great. The tengu have flight and should move to engage enemies to stop there use of ice mirrors. I am only so so on emissaries and I do not thing he gives enough bang for your buck here in other situations sure.

 

You are definately right about Addict. I'll change it with Smoke Grenades because I need an Upgrade left on Huggy in case i am dropping recalled training. I need the 2nd upgrade for the emissary to push Huggy. 

[tomjoad]

Always remember Hidden Agenda if you just want the Emissary to work with your models, too. You don't need Oiran to take it.

[qoob]

11 minutes ago, tomjoad said:

Always remember Hidden Agenda if you just want the Emissary to work with your models, too. You don't need Oiran to take it.

Yep! Didn't think about that! Thanks!

[Adran]

Didn't you say that you had Rising Sun on Jacob? 

Which means that when Huggy gets killed he doesn't actually die but instead becomes buried?  So you can't actually score any points for your Frame for murder until after the death of Jacob. (Which worked in this game, but I don't think Its normally a good plan). 

Use Cover. Lynch Dying that fast to that list does suggest you were too aggressive with him.  

I would have though Jacob and the Sniper can be looking at removing at least a Gamin a turn, although this will make them a priority target for Rasputina. 

[Sordid Strumpet]

2 hours ago, qoob said:

Hello Sordid Strumpet! Sorry for the late response.
Here is the Raspi list:

Rasputina (Decembers Pawn, Shattered Heart, Child of December)
Ice Golem (Sub Zero)
Wendigo 
2 December Acolytes 
3 Ice Gamin
 

We had squatters rights with a line in the sand, assassinate, frame for murder, breakthrough, protect territory and plant explosives (but I'm not really sure about the last two schemes). Unfortunately I've chosen breakthrough and frame for murder (Frame for murder on Huggy went really well). He had Assassinate, and he killed Lynch really fast (in the 2nd turn). In the managed to kill my scheme runners really quick (I had control of one scheme marker).

On turn 5 I had only one TT brother and one Illuminated left - he had Raspi, Ice Golem and two Gemins left.

The end score was 9:2 for Rasputina

I hope this helps a bit.

Lynch was definitely too aggressive. His card cycling and hand manipulation are fantastic. I'd use your superior hand to restrict how often Rasputina can achieve blast damage. Huggy who becomes buried is great to tie up the ice golem. Obey can be used to mess with his ice mirror placement. 

Remember Rasputina must see her ice mirror to use it. If you ar finding her extremely powerful, you may have too little terrain on the board.

Furthermore, he has no placement tricks at all so tying up Rasputina wil almost completely neuter her damage output.

Consider using a Beckoner, she can also stuff up the mirrors and put brilliance on targets which you can then use to unbury huggy again.

Another neat trick is to use Huggy to obey an acolyte to shoot the Golem - it has low Df so you can easily hit, force a discard and slow him. I don't know if Huggy can obey more than once (don't have e book on me atm), but you could then obey the other Acolyte. If Rasputina was using it as a mirror, the Acolyte is in range for shooting her and her Df is 3, so Sh 6 is a good stat to slow her and force another discard. 

Silent ones are fantastic obey target (Wp 4) or to be shot by an obeyed Acolyte (Df 3)

Generally speaking, anything that uses Df resists has a good chance VS frozen heart.

[D_acolyte]

5 hours ago, qoob said:

You are definately right about Addict. I'll change it with Smoke Grenades because I need an Upgrade left on Huggy in case i am dropping recalled training. I need the 2nd upgrade for the emissary to push Huggy. 

Second upgrade on the emissary? Emissaries are enforcers so they can only have 1 upgrade.

[qoob]

6 minutes ago, D_acolyte said:

Second upgrade on the emissary? Emissaries are enforcers so they can only have 1 upgrade.

Sorry for the missunderstanding: The emissary can push a non-leader model that has an upgrade (in my case Huggy - after Huggy drops Recalled Training he still has a 2nd one). The emissary has only his conflux upgrade. 

[MagicGis]

Hm... anything that says one turn advancing than dropping smoke grenades to cover open angels than charging next turn is a bad idea? Get some last blossoms on board ^^

Or suicide some tanky modell in via yu etc?

[Patzer]

Play Lynch cagey, walk from cover to cover, I think you will have to be very picky with his positioning. Have him resummon Huggy, cycle cards, and stay back. Stitched/Depleted (the latter will cause problems for Raspy) should be able to engage most Ice Mirrors and tank away. Huggy can sneak up and be a threat to Raspy from turn 2. Plenty of options it seems.