Perdita and Brutal Emissary Obey upgrade

[Dogsplosion]

Hi again folks!

 

I have been thinking about the possibilities entailed by the addition of Brutal Emissary's Conflux of the Hunt, which adds Masks to any Leader's Ca actions within Aura(8).

 

The first thing to note is that Perdita has a Ca7 Obey, with a 12" range.  This makes it quite capable of Obeying enemy models, especially with a built-in Mask allowing you to cheat high non-Mask cards in the opposed duel, without burning a stone each time.

 

Then I started thinking about some of the powerful things that can be done with an Obey on the enemy.  I'm sure many or all of these are well-known amongst factions with a strong Obey-like Master, but to be honest because of the high Mask requirement and the way it competes with Austringers, I've usually used Perdita's Obey sparingly, preferring to use her AP for damaging.  Anyway, some of the top options that come to mind:

1. Obey the model to walk off a high point, or move into Abuela's 6" no-charge zone, but not into engage range, so that it has only 1 Attack during its activation, or any one of a number of crippling moves such as attacking an enemy model, using its focus etc etc... these are kinda the "obvious" ones.
2. Obey the model to use a Sh action on Perdita, fail, and then use a Mask defensive trigger if you have it (or stone if you really need to) to trigger Quick Draw and deal 2/3/4 on a [-] damage flip.  This seems like a waste but it can get around Df (as the Ca is vs. Wp), which means it can get around Df triggers.  And it ignore cover of course, in case you wanted to use Hero's Gamble instead of Bullet Bending.
3. If the target hasn't activated yet, obey the model to attack my Peacekeeper, Executioner, or Lone Marshall (if Undead), then cheat to fail the horror duel, and give the model paralyze.

This last one (intentionally failing a horror duel) seems really good to me, from an AP-efficiency standpoint... anything that's within 12" of Perdita and within attack range of your Terror model can be paralyzed.  This seems strong enough that I starting thinking about other models that might be used for Terror, and so I was wondering what suggestions and thoughts people might have on which model to use for the Terror source.  Killjoy (so expensive), Amo No Zako (only vs. Living which we already have covered), and then there's Wrath from Shifting Loyalties, who I haven't really looked at but for 8SS he might be something to try.  

Are there other hire-able Terrifying models I'm forgetting?

And are there other really good Df or Wp triggers similar to Perdita's Quick Draw?  How about other really powerful abilities like Terrifying that I'm not thinking of?

Thanks for any input!

 

Edited November 17, 2015 by Dogsplosion
font colors continue to plague me...

[Ludvig]

Terrifying out of activation is probably the strongest thing you'll find. Paralyze stays until the next activation so if they already went this turn it stays until the next turn. You can also obey something to kill the governors proxy and straight up die but Perdita would probably always prefer her own totem so it will never come up.

Can't remember which terrifying mercs there are but if Wrath has terrifying all then go for it!

Walking something into melee with Francisco and then companion into a flurry can sometimes be nice. Wrath has a damaging aura too right? You can walk close to him for a horror check + the aura damage. Walking enemy models with fears given form close to their own crew or moving models with good auras to really bad places is also nice.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Ludvig

[Dirial]

Not worth it. The SS for the Mask for that 1-2 situations is way cheaper than the Emissary, and you can do all the stuff you listed with base Perdita. The Emissary is not a bad model, and throwing Papa's Dynamite around might be worth his inclusion, but not the Obey upgrade.

Perdita's gun does more. Dead models are better than paralyzed models.

[Ludvig]

Not worth it. The SS for the Mask for that 1-2 situations is way cheaper than the Emissary, and you can do all the stuff you listed with base Perdita. The Emissary is not a bad model, and throwing Papa's Dynamite around might be worth his inclusion, but not the Obey upgrade.

Perdita's gun does more. Dead models are better than paralyzed models.

This is also a way of looking at it of course. Damn your logic Dirial!  If you really really need to do distract with Perdita for a bet you might be better of paralyzing.

[Dirial]

Well yeah, it might be a way to play Perdita in friendly games. That's something I'm totally in favour of.

[Dogsplosion]

Not worth it. The SS for the Mask for that 1-2 situations is way cheaper than the Emissary, and you can do all the stuff you listed with base Perdita. The Emissary is not a bad model, and throwing Papa's Dynamite around might be worth his inclusion, but not the Obey upgrade.

Perdita's gun does more. Dead models are better than paralyzed models.

Oh I disagree, Dirial... that's a big oversimplification.  

It may be true that I'd usually rather have a model dead than Paralyzed (though not always, e.g. if Frame for Murder is in the pool and I'm going in turn 5 and going to get all my VPs either way, I wouldn't bother killing it... just one of many examples).  However the biggest reason this is interesting is that often times a model (e.g. Hard to Kill, in Hard Cover, having 8 Wounds remaining) can be locked down and effectively removed from the game using fewer AP with this Obey->Paralyze sequence.

I wouldn't advocate including the Emissary for just one of his abilities, of course... exploring his Obey upgrade doesn't preclude using his other abilities.  Of course I still plan to use his Back in the Box and synergy with Francisco, etc.

And I'm certainly not suggesting this combo is something to build your entire crew around, but more like "Looking for ways to have this move at my disposal using models that are great together in other ways, too."  That's why I'm not super happy with the Terrifying models I have identified so far: I'm not sure any of them really belongs in the crew

However I'm still looking and thinking about it, because although Perdita is a great killer, being able to Paralyze a model at 12" with Ca7 and using just a low-ball cheat card for their Horror duel is a very powerful tool to have in the box.

[Ryin]

Don't forget, the obey isn't the only thing that benefits. It also bakes in the mask for witched bullet, giving her a  to dmg if you're more interested in killing. 

Give someone Diestro and put their fat model at  vs. SH 7 and  dmg and Perdita gets even more gross.

It also bakes in her DF trigger. 

As far as obey goes, if you're willing to not take the enslaved Nephilim, you could bring governors proxy and obey something to kill it, then fail the wp duel and trade 3 SS for double, triple or possibly quadruple the SS. 

Plus, he's a spot healer before he goes.

i see some potential, I just think it requires a tweak in play style.

[Myyrä]

Don't forget, the obey isn't the only thing that benefits. It also bakes in the mask for witched bullet, giving her a  to dmg if you're more interested in killing. 

Give someone Diestro and put their fat model at  vs. SH 7 and  dmg and Perdita gets even more gross.

It also bakes in her DF trigger. 

As far as obey goes, if you're willing to not take the enslaved Nephilim, you could bring governors proxy and obey something to kill it, then fail the wp duel and trade 3 SS for double, triple or possibly quadruple the SS. 

Plus, he's a spot healer before he goes.

i see some potential, I just think it requires a tweak in play style.

Except the Emissary doesn't give Perdita to anything other than the Ca action.

[Ryin]

Oh, it's just obey?

i clearly haven't read it in a while. 

[Dirial]

Oh I disagree, Dirial... that's a big oversimplification.  

It may be true that I'd usually rather have a model dead than Paralyzed (though not always, e.g. if Frame for Murder is in the pool and I'm going in turn 5 and going to get all my VPs either way, I wouldn't bother killing it... just one of many examples).  However the biggest reason this is interesting is that often times a model (e.g. Hard to Kill, in Hard Cover, having 8 Wounds remaining) can be locked down and effectively removed from the game using fewer AP with this Obey->Paralyze sequence.

[...]

However I'm still looking and thinking about it, because although Perdita is a great killer, being able to Paralyze a model at 12" with Ca7 and using just a low-ball cheat card for their Horror duel is a very powerful tool to have in the box.

True, it is an oversimplification but note that nothing in your text needs the Emissary, especially if this is a "sometimes it's more effective to Paralyze" (read, once or twice a game) kind of ability.

[zFiend]

While it might be an over simplification one might argue that yours is an far fetched pipe dream to make models work with Perdita that have no place in her lists namely the emissary and executioner. Perdita will be way more efficient without either of those and doing what she's known for. Kill the enemy models. 

[Ryin]

I ran the emissary today just for kicks. I liked it.

Although I didn't use obey a LOT, it was nice to have just for the fact that I didn't have to worry about a suit when i wanted to do it. It's not like the emissary SUCKS. It's a pretty good model without an upgrade. I used it to obey Envy and fired it at a collodi that was out of range. I then used it later to have that Envy kill my governor's proxy and forced it to die. (it was my opponent's highest cost model)

I didn't really MISS the enslaved nephilim, but I also had other ways of pushing.

I might want to try it some more, but I think with the right crew it can be used pretty effectively. It might not be super competitive, but I don't think it's useless either

 

[Rurouni Benshin]

It definitely makes Perdita more versatile.  Up until this point, I've never used her "Obey" action since I've always found it more effective to attack with her Peacebringer, but having the option to do something else is very nice too. 

[Dogsplosion]

While it might be an over simplification one might argue that yours is an far fetched pipe dream to make models work with Perdita that have no place in her lists namely the emissary and executioner. Perdita will be way more efficient without either of those and doing what she's known for. Kill the enemy models. 

Very sorry if something I said offended you!

The Executioner is not good and that is exactly why I was looking for a better source of Terrifying in my original post.  The Peacekeeper is better but IMO too expensive in most cases since the crew already contains Perdita, Frank (probably) and the Emissary.

Against undead the Lone Marshall might go from "pretty good but not quite" to "worth including", not sure yet.

And I'm betting if you think the Emissary has absolutely "no place in her lists", regardless of terrain, opponent, strats or schemes, that you haven't played with him much... have you?

Again no offense intended!

 

[Dogsplosion]

[...]

True, it is an oversimplification but note that nothing in your text needs the Emissary, especially if this is a "sometimes it's more effective to Paralyze" (read, once or twice a game) kind of ability.

Okay so we agree that it's not always better to Shoot than to Obey->Paralyze.

And of course Perdita can use a SS (something I'd rather not do, since Perdita relies a lot on SS for damage prevention) or a high Mask (something I'd really rather not do with Austringers competing for the high Mask cards).

So now it's really a matter of whether the additional ease of Obey, *plus* the Emissary's other great abilities (Back in the Box is great, as is a non-projectile Sh6 attack, and most importantly IMO his synergy with Frank), makes him a competitive choice.  I personally think it might, but I'm undecided.  There are matchups where Perdita struggles and I think Emissary might really help in those.  

I do however think it's very hard to fit all the standard "Good Guild Models" (e.g. Frank, 2x Austringer, Watcher, etc.) alongside the Emissary... so he's by no means an auto-include.

Anyway you are free to disagree, of course, it's just that your original post made it sound so black and whit", so I wanted to point out why it was not is simple as you made it sound when you said "Perdita's gun does more. Dead models are better than paralyzed models."  

Also, you commented that using Papa's Throw Dynamite ability could be a better reason to include Emissary.  I'm again wondering: does this come from experience playing him a lot with Papa Loco?  Because in my experience, he's much better suited boxing Francisco than Papa, for a variety of reasons!  So I'm curious: have you played Emissary much?  I never can tell on the forums who is basing opinions on theory + playtesting, and who is just basing it on theory.

Thanks!

[Dogsplosion]

I ran the emissary today just for kicks. I liked it.

[...]

I might want to try it some more, but I think with the right crew it can be used pretty effectively. It might not be super competitive, but I don't think it's useless either

If you have the interest, try keeping the Nephalim in the list and running Emissary, boxing Francisco and using Frank's Enfrentate a Mi, Sh or Ml attacks from the Emissary... he makes an amazing shelter for Frank and also puts him into combat with both AP for a Flurry using the 7" EaM place/unbox/chain.  I find you can get a whole lot of aggression going with Perdita, Emissary and Frank pushing into the enemy crew without taking a lot of hits on the way in.

Let me know what you think!

[Dirial]

Papa usually spends his turns in Pine Boxes. His gun is pretty awesome, and the Emissary can use it. I don't box Papa with the Emissary at all.

[Dogsplosion]

Yeah his Throw Dynamite is a good Sh attack (although similarly range-limited to the Emissary's own), but I just don't find that I have room under 50SS for Perdita, Brutal Emissary, Papa Loco, and Death Marshal... what list are you playing that includes all those guys?  Are you not playing Francisco?

[Dirial]

Not always. Papa is way more deadly, I find. Perdita with a fix to damage does a lot of work. Also, Franc still fits the list, although it starts to look very much like a "kill everything, worry about Schemes later" list. So, probably Reckoning.

[Dogsplosion]

Honestly, I really can't see Papa + Marshal going in with a Perdita + Emissary crew, just too many mid/high SS models that don't work that well on their own.

But I'll readily admit I haven't tried those models together.  Guess I just don't like the look of it on paper, so I haven't tested it.  Seems like too many mid/high models basically playing buff Perdita, and not enough of them doing work turns 1 and 2.  I also don't like leaving Abuela out in certain matchups, because then the Emissary loses +2Wp from the Aura Ancestral and I lose mobility.  Hmmm.  I think if I were going to run Papa Box + Emissary it'd have to be Sonnia.  Eh.

Well if you've found a list that works, post it, and I'll try it out, can't hurt!  Maybe I need to quit relying so much on my Austringer Crutches

[Ryin]

 I had Papa, Emissary, death marshal, emissary, frank, governor's proxy, Grimwell. I used Grimwell to push on turn 1. Granted with upgrades and such, I only had 2 SS, but there was a little wiggle room if I had chosen different upgrades. I got 4 points off the strat and got assassinate off, but couldn't get any points for the other scheme but that was cause there was 4 models on the table between both of us at the end of the game and I was going against a pretty gross Collodi list and, admittedly, I made a few mistakes. I never felt like i was MISSING anything though and my opponent had pretty good flips, which can always ruin a good strategy/crew.

I ran the emissary today just for kicks. I liked it.

[...]

I might want to try it some more, but I think with the right crew it can be used pretty effectively. It might not be super competitive, but I don't think it's useless either

If you have the interest, try keeping the Nephalim in the list and running Emissary, boxing Francisco and using Frank's Enfrentate a Mi, Sh or Ml attacks from the Emissary... he makes an amazing shelter for Frank and also puts him into combat with both AP for a Flurry using the 7" EaM place/unbox/chain.  I find you can get a whole lot of aggression going with Perdita, Emissary and Frank pushing into the enemy crew without taking a lot of hits on the way in.

Let me know what you think!

That could be interesting. I really think the Brutal Emissary is just awesome in general and love trying to think of new ways to use it.

[orkdork]

The "dead better than paralyzed" argument reminds me of Pandora arguments around Box Opens vs. Voices.

From my experience, it's a silly argument: Voices >> Box Opens in any game where my opponent knows how to play around my crew. Yeah, leave Pandora/Perdita unchecked and they'll kill stuff, but why would the opponent do that?

When Perdita kills my stuff, I screwed up. It's not like she just gets free shots on things all day. Once the game steamrolls against me, sure, but until that tipping point, she's going to find it much, much harder to find targets. If there were a good Terrifying option, this trick would be outstanding. Using 1 AP and a low cheat for a paralyze at 12" range with no concern for cover on a Ca7? Sign me up!

Is it always available? Of course not. But neither is peacebringer face-melting.

Unless your table and opponent are both new

[Dogsplosion]

So just as an update: I tried the build with Papa + Death Marshall on top of a Perdita + Emissary crew and just didn't feel like it worked well... too much lost activation, too much focus on making Perdita even killier, not enough active support (e.g. no room for 2x Austringers or Watchers).  So yeah, still not a believer in that build.

And separately, I still haven't found a compelling Terrifying source to make the Perdita + Emissary Obey->Paralyze available, except possibly Lone Marshal vs. Undead (have yet to try it but the rest just fail even on paper).  Bummer because it's potentially very powerful.  I'm hoping Wyrd releases a new model with Terrifying and I can revisit at some point down the line.

 In fact, unless I can figure out a build with a Terrifying source, I'm going to start running the generic Emissary upgrade with Perdita and see if his boost to the Austringers (and any other Minions that want to hang back and shoot with them), plus copying their amazing attack, is a compelling option!

[Ludvig]

Putting Ap from a 10ss model to copy a 6ss model seems like poor use of AP, especially if you just buffed the attacks of the austringers (but not the emmissary) with the upgrade. I can see the emmissary as useful for tying stuff up or getting a slow ml model closer but these suggestions are starting to get very gimmicky in my opinion. 

I find a lot of what I try to do with the emmissary myself ends up gimmicky.

[lusciousmccabe]

Putting Ap from a 10ss model to copy a 6ss model seems like poor use of AP, especially if you just buffed the attacks of the austringers (but not the emmissary) with the upgrade. 

Not necessarily. If you're trying to finish off a terror tot behind a wall then copying the austringers attack might be the only way to do it. I wouldn't take the emissary just to be an extra austringer but it's still a good option to have. 

Edited November 25, 2015 by lusciousmccabe