What about Arcame emissary?

[Luca 2.0]

hey guys, i was thinking about Arcane emissary.

1: good stats , +1 armor, nice 10" charge.

2: he hits quite hard when he charges, the others abilities are pretty good. the "0" attack ..2 damage that cannot be prevent and ignore HTK is really nice.

3: nice passive he can clear scheme and corpse marker just charging and he can let making another model performing another 1) attack actions just discarding a card.

4: the ability to draw cards it's strong but situationally cause not always you are able to score points from strategy.

Now we must consider that we already have hard hitter in meele; so his others abilities are superior? For example why should i keep him istead of Howard? Most of you maybe are thinking: "it depends about missions". That's ok! But why should i keep him? Some particular trick with some specific master?

[hippodruid]

I wouldn't take the Emissary if I just needed a beater.  I would take it in a game where durability and combat ability are useful and the scheme pool called for markers.  Also, if I suspected the opponent was going for some kind of synergy list (Horrors, Sisters, Freikorps, Witch Hunters, Beasts, etc.), that would bump it up the list a bit, as it can remove non-station characteristics.  The Confluxes can also enhance some master's playstyles or give benefits to thematic crews, but I would consider that more of a perk than the reason for taking the Emissary.

[decker_cky]

I think the master perk is a key. Say if you're facing gremlins - Marcus' emissary lets nearby models ignore defensive triggers. That's a devastating ability against a faction filled with defensive triggers. Against guild, that ability is much less important. 

[Rogue1]

I think the Emmisary is a very strong contender for a slot in Rasputina's crew due to his ability to still be used as a mirror while engaged.  I have had some success with Colette as well with the ability to teleport out of engagement then charge back in.  Another trick that I have tried that was iinterestin with Colette was to have a performer target him with her scheme marker removal spell to give a bunch of enemies  to def around the Emmisary then activate the Emmisary and hopefully heal the damaged back with either fated or the earth shield trigger.

[Jordon]

What I like about the emissary over other models who are around that point level is the sheer versatility it provides. This thing literally does everything...

- Great stats

- Hit's hard

- Huge charge/threat range

- Has a two Ca action (ignores incorporeal) that ignore engagement, one of which is a (0)

- Multiple push effects

- Multiple healing effects

- Can ignore h2k

- Card drawing

- Marker removal

- Allows free Ap on friendly models 

- Can completely shut down certain synergies via negation

- Causes burning (which many models synergies off of)

- and of course all the master specific upgrades

I challenge you to find another arcanists model, heck even any model who can boast such a variety of abilities. Its a fantastic model.

 

[Fog]

A large pile of abilities doesn't make a model good.  

For example, I would never take the Emissary with Ramos.  His pile of special abilities doesn't mean much when you've already got reactivating Hank.
 
His minimum damage on his mainstay attack is low for a model of his cost.  He's obnoxiously slow when he's not charging.  He's not as straight up tough as Langston, Joss, the ice golem, or the rail golem.  He really needs to be played with a master that gives him a relevant upgrade or he's strictly inferior to the four other models in his price range that do his job better.

To be honest, I am still really bitter that they took our cool, flavorful wizard puppet and turned it into a high cost melee bull robot competing for the same role with all of our other high cost models, so I may be slightly overcritical.  I've tried using him, though, and every time I have I wished he was something else.
 

[Jordon]

Yeah he definitely suffers from being a "jack of all, master of none" and many of our other big models can do specific tasks better than he does, but the arcanists don't need another beater. I just find that it always brings something useful and in certain cases it brings something critical such as marker removal and the ability to remove characteristics can neuter certain synergies. However they made him with the intention of not making the other choices irrelevant. Marcus want's beasts, Ramos wants robots, Ironsides want's M&SU and the emissary is none of these things, however even without, it still brings value to each of those masters.

I also have to disagree about his survivability compared to Langston, and both golems. I will give it to Joss as armour +2 and H2K with Df 5 is about as good as it gets for survivability. However I'd still take Armour +1 and Df 6 over Armour +2 and Df 4/2 and Lanston just has one extra Wd but a lower Df and no heals. You can't underestimate armour +1 and a high Df, especially the various ways to heal. 

[D_acolyte]

I think all the emissaries really comes down to what the upgrade does for your master the play style you want to take that master and if you think it is enough. Example Ironside gets adrenalin (assuming my memory is correct) which me is good for a combative build for her but less good for a support build but Colette counts as a scheme for abilities and actions which I feel is weaker for her crew as it can generate a lot of scheme markers already.

[Jordon]

Of all the master upgrades, I would probably rate Kaeris/Raspy as the best ones and very high considerations. Followed by Mei Feng and Ironsides, who are definitely good but you could take it or leave it in my opinion. Last is Marcus and Ramos and Colette, who don't really seem get much from the upgrades, but I don't think I'd ever say it's a terrible choice for either of them.

[Breng77]

I feel like the best part for Colette is it can act as a marker that cannot be blocked for her defensive trigger.

[Jordon]

That's nice and all, but it sort of relegates the emissary to a 10ss babysitter. You can accomplish the same thing using Mannequins and doves for far less investment.

[Rogue1]

With Colette I like using the Emmisary as a marker for the performer's action to give  to a group of enemies.  Also the minor teleport isn't bad.

[Fog]

I also have to disagree about his survivability compared to Langston, and both golems. I will give it to Joss as armour +2 and H2K with Df 5 is about as good as it gets for survivability. However I'd still take Armour +1 and Df 6 over Armour +2 and Df 4/2 and Lanston just has one extra Wd but a lower Df and no heals. You can't underestimate armour +1 and a high Df, especially the various ways to heal. 

The golems are always hit, sure, but the ice golem can end your activation after you hit him, and even with Def 4 I find it easy to reliably limit my opponen to a negative flip.  They'll usually hit for 1 after armor, maybe two, and I'll be on my way.  Def 6 may mean you can force a miss here and there but if they want to force it through, they still usually can.  Something with a Weak damage of 3 is dealing double damage compared to the golems.  

And Langston has terrifying, which isn't always applicable, but he's also got unparalelled maneuverability.  He'll live longer because he can pick his spots, kill something, and maybe even nimble away.  It's not raw, on paper "lives longer" but it isn't something to discount.

I do concede the point on heals, though.  Self heals are never bad.  

[Myyrä]

The golems are always hit, sure, but the ice golem can end your activation after you hit him, and even with Def 4 I find it easy to reliably limit my opponen to a negative flip.  They'll usually hit for 1 after armor, maybe two, and I'll be on my way.

Your ice golem is a minion and can carry two upgrades? Even if that were possible, I wouldn't pay 13ss to get it.

[Fog]

Firstly, I didn't realize that upgrade gave the ability to minions.  I don't think I've used the ice golem in 2E yet, so that's my bad.  

Secondly, I switched stream of thought midway through the sentence.  I was intending on saying "and as for the rail golem, even with def 4..."  

Proofreading does a body good.

[Jordon]

I really like the emissary with Kaeris. The ability to fly (with G&D) with a Cg10 is simply amazing. Not to mention being able to use two (0) with Kaeris really opens her up in my opinion.

I don't know if there will be many circumstances where I trade the Wd for a point of burning, but I guess it could come in handy if you are playing Kaeris as a healer, of if you just need that extra point of damage to finish off a model.

[Guslado]

I keep wanting to bring the Emissary along with Marcus--not allowing Df triggers looks great in theory. Downside to the Emissary in that situation is that he himself is not a Beast and thus doesn't benefit from a lot of the synergies I normally use within my Marcus crews. Yeah, I can turn him into a beast with a Raptor, but I feel like the upgrade should have given him the Beast characteristic to begin with.

[Jordon]

Yeah the problem with the Marcus Emissary is that you never know when/if Df triggers will be relevant. It's definitely powerful against certain matches, but not knowing what your opponent will drop really makes this a big gamble. I'd imagine gremlins being the best case scenario for this upgrade, but even then the odds are not necessarily great. 

[Ludvig]

Yeah the problem with the Marcus Emissary is that you never know when/if Df triggers will be relevant. It's definitely powerful against certain matches, but not knowing what your opponent will drop really makes this a big gamble. I'd imagine gremlins being the best case scenario for this upgrade, but even then the odds are not necessarily great. 

Every damned gremlin and their grandmother has squeal! I would definetly bring it against gremlins if I could.  

Hell, even guild rely heavily on triggers. Look at all those constructs with grind to a halt and the book 1 masters with their "I hit you instead"-triggers... Now look again! 

I also know players who almost always take one of the riders for certain scheme combinations and this ability can seriously mess up their day.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Ludvig

[Jordon]

By my count, there is 18 out of 51 gremlins who have a Df/Wp trigger and 14 out of 48 for the guild. So odd's are certainly not in favour of it being overly relevant, however the one nice thing about it is that most of those are on masters and shutting those down can be pretty scary. 

[Guslado]

I've been playing against a fair number of 10 Thunders recently and I am sick and @#&^% tired of Misdirection. I'm looking forward to the look on their face when it no longer works for them. I've also found that if you run Marcus in punchy mode he can overextend himself very easily, with the 10" charge range I feel like the Emissary can keep up.

[dgraz]

Downside to the Emissary in that situation is that he himself is not a Beast and thus doesn't benefit from a lot of the synergies I normally use within my Marcus crews. Yeah, I can turn him into a beast with a Raptor, but I feel like the upgrade should have given him the Beast characteristic to begin with.

If I had a dime for every time I thought/said that.......

[Ludvig]

By my count, there is 18 out of 51 gremlins who have a Df/Wp trigger and 14 out of 48 for the guild. So odd's are certainly not in favour of it being overly relevant, however the one nice thing about it is that most of those are on masters and shutting those down can be pretty scary. 

I guess we have different experiences there. The way I see it there's a good chance of the enemy master having a def trigger since everyone except Mah has one (for Brewie it's Wesley who has squeel but since you need to kill him that basically means Brewie has it). Since my local gremlin players don't have Mah that's 100% chance of a really annoying trigger on the enemy leader so for a game with assassinate it would seem really powerful and sometimes you want to finish the enemy master off even without assassinate in the pool. I guess if you play a lot of henchman-led games or face an opponent who exclusively plays Mah it won't come up.

As for the models with squeel: Bayou Gremlins, Slop haulers, Rami and Francois LaCroix as well as Fingers has squeel. In the lists I face those are some really common models. Like really really common. I guess Ulix lists don't always include at 2-3 of those models but still.

Slop haulers deserve a special mention since you really need to kill them in one activation or not bother to try at all and squeel makes them immune to the second attack in a charge so you basically need 6 (7with Lenny) damage from one attack if you can't charge them.

On the Guild side I can agree that you won't always face that many defensive triggers.

To clarify: I'm not trying to force anyone to take the emmissary with Marcus, just saying you are likely to face triggers with Gremlins considering which models have them. I wholeheartedly agree that it should have gained beast with Marcus, just seems sillu not to.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Ludvig

[Jordon]

I'm just glad at least someone is getting some use from it

[Guslado]

By my count, there is 18 out of 51 gremlins who have a Df/Wp trigger and 14 out of 48 for the guild. So odd's are certainly not in favour of it being overly relevant, however the one nice thing about it is that most of those are on masters and shutting those down can be pretty scary. 

To clarify: I'm not trying to force anyone to take the emmissary with Marcus, just saying you are likely to face triggers with Gremlins considering which models have them. I wholeheartedly agree that it should have gained beast with Marcus, just seems sillu not to.

I will hopefully get a chance to actually bring it along tonight to give it a go with Marcus. I plan do use a Malifaux Raptor to turn the Emissary into a Beast. I was also thinking that Df6 along with Myranda's  on Df aura could make it quite difficult to hit.