Kirai - Of Pity and Wind (Valid target?)

[PolishSausage]

Kirai's df/wp trigger let her pawn off attacks on friendly spirits around her, but also the effects of the said action so here are 4 questions.

 

1) Shooting Kirai in LOS, seishin is out of LOS , can she pawn off an attack on it?

 

2) As above, but triggering "trigger happy" I dont have LOS so seishin, can I still shoot it?

 

3) Targeting Kirai with Sommers "card drop" required a leader, can she pawn it off, if she does, does it still go off?

 

4) Discarding vengence bullet, do I get the card back half way through as I can only target soulstone users and this halfway goes from the + attack flip to a non  soulstone user?

 

Thanks!

[Dirial]

1. Yes. Targeting requires LoS, but the requirements were fulfilled before the trigger was declared. It's not needed for the trigger itself.

 

2. Trigger Happy allows an additional shot against the target. I'd assume, those additional shots target Kirai and she has to pawn off each one to the Seishin.

 

3. Good question. I'd say no.

 

4. No, you don't. Don't discard Vengeance Bullet against Kirai. Bad idea. (Unless Datsue Ba or Philip are the only targets for the trigger.)

[zFiend]

1. Yes. Targeting requires LoS, but the requirements were fulfilled before the trigger was declared. It's not needed for the trigger itself.

 

2. Trigger Happy allows an additional shot against the target. I'd assume, those additional shots target Kirai and she has to pawn off each one to the Seishin.

 

3. Good question. I'd say no.

 

4. No, you don't. Don't discard Vengeance Bullet against Kirai. Bad idea. (Unless Datsue Ba or Philip are the only targets for the trigger.)

 

I agree on all counts.

[PraetorDragoon]

3) Targeting Kirai with Sommers "card drop" required a leader, can she pawn it off, if she does, does it still go off?

 

It goes still off. Targetting restrictions only matter if you declare a target. Once results are being applied, they can't fizzle anymore.

[Phototropic]

regarding 3), i would assume it doesn't go off as kirai's trigger states "as if it had been the target" so the leader/kirai is no longer considered the target for somers attack which affects the target enemy leader, instead you play it as if they attacked the seishin all along.

[Dirial]

Yeah, I worded my response ambigously. I'd assume 3. does go off, can be pawned off, and has no effect as it didn't target the Leader. Not a good idea to use it against Kirai again.

[PraetorDragoon]

I disagree on that the card discard effect would fizzle. There is no need to retarget, the spirit just suffers the effect of the action.

 

As for Trigger Happy, triggers also happen to the new target, so you would need to shoot the model Kirai did pawn the effect off. If you don't have los to that taget, tough luck.

[Dirial]

I disagree on that the card discard effect would fizzle. There is no need to retarget, the spirit just suffers the effect of the action.

 

As for Trigger Happy, triggers also happen to the new target, so you would need to shoot the model Kirai did pawn the effect off. If you don't have los to that taget, tough luck.

 

You might be right on the first one. I'm unsure about the second one. (You might be right there too, of course.) The Trigger Happy trigger allows an additional attack against the same target as the first one. The target is still Kirai, the other Spirit (Seishin in this case) just suffered the effect as if it had been the target. Yes, including triggers, but Trigger Happy doesn't affect the pawned off attack at all.

 

I'm still iffy about the Bigger Hat, but I think the additional shot of Trigger Happy would target Kirai. Note that By Your Side specifies that Sidir becomes the target, which Of Pity and Wind does not.

[PraetorDragoon]

Good point on Sidirs ability. Forget about that thing. Trigger Happy might be iffy in that regard.

 

Bigger Hat however isn't really IMO. "Target Leader" only comes really into play during the Declare Targets step.

[Bengt]

In my reading Bigger Hat is instructing "target Leader" to do something. If the target isn't a Leader it wont have to do anything, so if this attack gets passed on to another model only Som'er discards cards.

[PolishSausage]

yes but then again Sommer cant legally CHOSE to use an effect on a model that is not a model in question.

 

just like I can not use abilities that specify a target again anything else just to flip for an effect on my model

 

"push this model towards a friendly model then push the friendly model 6 inches" by your definition I can still target enemy model and my action will go off, I just wont be able to push the enemy model because its not friendly. Actions and abilities don't work half way in the game.

 

Many gremlins have a specific blurb about the model they pawn off the attack on to be a legal target for the action. Kirai and the Dreamer have this ambiguous "?" that creates confusion

[Dirial]

 Actions and abilities don't work half way in the game.

 

Myyrä might argue you about this point. I'm not sure how he would see this specific interaction, but he's made arguments about models which can be targeted but won't have the effect applied in the past. It's not exactly clear by the rules if this generally doesn't work or not.

[Bengt]

Actions and abilities don't work half way in the game.

Actually they do. The rules for Immunity on page 39 plainly state that if an Attack does damage and applies a Condition the target is immune to, the damage is done and the Condition is ignored.

 

Now, only Justin knows if this particular Action is intended to work halfway, but there are definitely some things that work halfway.

[PolishSausage]

correct but this is an example and exact definition for those things, something kirai and dreamer df trigger does not delve deeper into.

Its as if both those cards assume the reader knows some specific piece of info we have no idea of. It would be best if we would get Justin to give us an official ruling on how  those 2 triggers work and how to deal with exceptions to the rules.

 

You cant plan around dealing with a model if you dont exactly know what it does, or how it reacts in game. There is a difference between agreeing with opponent and official tournament errata.

[PolishSausage]

5) Q: Can Pandora take the Self Harm Action against a model without a z Attack? (Same question for
Self Loathing and y Attacks).
A: Yes. The Attack would simply be unable to deal damage. Self Harm selects a z Attack on the target and applies the
damage, but does not require the target to have a z Attack. Attacks that require the target have a certain trait in order to target
are generally worded, “Target model with a z Attack…” Self Harm is not worded in this way.

 

So...

Target model with a blight condition  -> only models with blight conditions

Target model with a burning condition  -> only models with burning conditions

 

Target model with undead characteristic -> only models that are undead

[Guy in Suit]

Oooffff  I spent a very nailbiter table one match up at Live Free or Die Cheating thinking that I couldn't pawn off the Somer card drop as none of my Seishins were Leaders.... This would have made it a lot easier!  Justin, make it so!

[Dirial]

5) Q: Can Pandora take the Self Harm Action against a model without a z Attack? (Same question for

Self Loathing and y Attacks).

A: Yes. The Attack would simply be unable to deal damage. Self Harm selects a z Attack on the target and applies the

damage, but does not require the target to have a z Attack. Attacks that require the target have a certain trait in order to target

are generally worded, “Target model with a z Attack…” Self Harm is not worded in this way.

 

So...

Target model with a blight condition  -> only models with blight conditions

Target model with a burning condition  -> only models with burning conditions

 

Target model with undead characteristic -> only models that are undead

 

This doesn't clarify anything. Targeting happens during Step 1 of the duel process, and Kirai can indeed be the target. Then, duels are performed and triggers are declared, and the attack gets pawned off. Nothing in that answer prevents the results being shifted to a Seishin. Which doesn't mean it works per say, but your citation doesn't clarify it.

[PolishSausage]

so by your definition we ignore that the seishin itself is/is not a leader as that is decided during the targeting step. You only resolve the card drop mechanic regardless if its kirai or another spirit as you are past the moment of "succeeding" the duel

[Dirial]

so by your definition we ignore that the seishin itself is/is not a leader as that is decided during the targeting step. You only resolve the card drop mechanic regardless if its kirai or another spirit as you are past the moment of "succeeding" the duel

 

We ignore that the target was not the Seishin for the sake of the effect hitting the Seishin, yes. That's the effect of the trigger.

 

Not sure if that means the effect takes place, yet. A lot of models can discard cards, for various reasons. Doesn't technically have to be a Leader to discard all of them.

[Kadeton]

Ah, targeting restrictions versus effect requirements. Again.

For Bigger Hat, I would say (based on extrapolating from other clarifications, which can be a bit risky but is all we have to go on at this stage) that you resolve the discard effect even if the eventual target is not a Leader - you chose a valid target when it was required, and the effects are passed off.

 

Say you were passing off two theoretical attacks, one of which says "Target model suffers damage equal to the value of its Burning Condition," and the other says "Target model with the Burning Condition suffers 3 damage." If Kirai had Burning +4 and the Seishin did not, the first attack would deal no damage and the second would deal 3 damage to the Seishin. That's the difference between targeting restrictions and effect requirements in a nutshell.

[sharpobjects]

I have always maintained that Kirai's Df/Wp trigger forced the spirit within 2 inches of Kirai to be come the new target. As it states in her ability " as if it had been the target instead of this model, including any triggers". I have always had the opinion that her ability was written as such to not only pass damage off to the friendly spirit but to also circumvent attacks that required the attacker to target a model with a specific conditon, characteristic, etc.

 

After rereading the ability over and over and consulting page 37 of the big book "resolve effects" section I am not so sure now. Her ability Of Pity and Wind states; After an Attack Action succeeds against this model, target friendly spirit within 2 inches and LOS suffers the effects of the Action as if it had been the target instead of this model, including any triggers.  

 

When the attacker initially targeted Kiriai she met the attackers targeting requirements or else that attack would have failed before even beginning the duel. If the Attack Action says target enemy leader or target a soul stone user or target a model with burning, if Kirai didnt meet any of these requirements then she would not be able to be targeted to begin with. 

 

So she meets the targeting requirement and then we begin the opposed duel. Kirai triggers her Of Pity and Wind during the duel which the attacker suceeded. On page 37 it states that after the duel is completed, the model performs the Actions effects. The most common effects are dealing damage. The spirit now suffers the effects of the duel as if it had been the original target. I dont think we go backwards and now check to see if the spirit is a legal target with regards to the initial targeting of a model at the beginning of the opposed duel.

 

The duel that legaly targeted Kirai now passes the effects of the Action onto the spirit. Whatever damage or effect Kirai would have taken because she is a leader, a soul stone user, a model with a certain condition, that effect is now passed onto the spirit. The spirit will suffer the effects as if it had the certain condition or characteristic, etc. 

 

So if you discarded Vengenence Bullets then the positive twist to damage and +1 damage will apply against the spirit. The spirit will also suffer the effects from Bigger Hat Than You, etc. I also believe that in the example of trigger happy that the friendy spirit will suffer the effects of that trigger since Kirai's ability states "including any triggers". If the spirit is still alive then the Convict Gunslinger will shoot at the spirit. If the spirit died from the initial attack then the trigger happy trigger will fizzle. 

 

The main issue is, after the duel succeeds and we are at the resolve the effects of the action stage, do we go back and now check to see if the spirit could be a legal target of the already succeeded action? Or do we just resolve the effects of the Action against the spirit including any triggers regardless if the spirit could have been initially targeted with the original Action to begin with?

 

It is up to Justin and hopefully we can get an official resolution in the near future.