Sonnia Criid, Ancient Runes and Terrifying

[Dirial]

In a thread about Sonnia Criid we stumbled upon the following question, and I'm not sure how to answer it.

 

Sonnia has the following ability:

 

"Ancient Runes: This model gains  to duels during its Ca Actions when targeting a model with Wp 6 or more."

 

My question is: Does this include duels she has to make for targeting the model, e.g. Terrifying and Manipulative?

 

The relevant rules can be found on page 37, big rulebook, where the sequence an Action is resolved is described. Under Step 1. Declare Action and spend AP the following sentence can be found:

 

"Sometimes a target will have special Abilities (such as Terrifying) that requires (sic!) a duel in response to being targeted. These duels are handled now, after AP is spent and targets are declared."

 

Step 2. Perform Duels follows.

 

For me, that part in Step 1 means that the Horror duel is performed during the action (during step 1 of the action, to be precise), and as it's a duel and the target is declared before, Sonnia could profit from the Ability.

 

For others who disagreed with me, Step 2. Perform Duels indicates that only duels performed during the second step of an action should be modified by the ability.

 

I hope I represented the arguments of both sides fairly. What do the rules masters think? Are there rule passages I overlooked that clear the question up?

 

Thank you for your attention.

[Myyrä]

It would seem it does based on the rules you quoted.

Terrifying tests are duels and they definitely happen during action.

Many people also seem to think that Leveticus works similarly, so there is that.

[jonahmaul]

Still a no for me because Terrifying is defined as a Wp duel and so isn't a Ca action.  But I'd be interested in an official response.

 

What's the similarity with Levi Myyra?

[zFiend]

Still a no for me because Terrifying is defined as a Wp duel and so isn't a Ca action. But I'd be interested in an official response.

I agree still. It specifies CA.

[Dirial]

I agree still. It specifies CA.

 

For the action, not all duels.

 

Still a no for me because Terrifying is defined as a Wp duel and so isn't a Ca action.  But I'd be interested in an official response.

 

Yeah, that's why I posted it again. Also, the Wp duel doesn't need to be a Ca action, because the ability specifies all duels during a Ca action.

 

 

What's the similarity with Levi Myyra?

 

Becasue people assume that Levi can profit from  to Horror duels when he Channels an action.

[jonahmaul]

Hmmm, Levi seems more clear cut because it states 'all duels'.  I think that the Ca action which Sonnia benefits from positives from doesn't take place until step two of the action step when you perform the Ca duel.  But you do have to declare the Ca action during step one so I can see why it's not clear.  Personally I think they are two different duels and as Terrifying isn't a Ca ability she doesn't get the benefit.  I can see how it could be viewed the other way.  When is the next FAQ due!?

[Dirial]

Hmmm, Levi seems more clear cut because it states 'all duels'.  I think that the Ca action which Sonnia benefits from positives from doesn't take place until step two of the action step when you perform the Ca duel.  But you do have to declare the Ca action during step one so I can see why it's not clear.  Personally I think they are two different duels and as Terrifying isn't a Ca ability she doesn't get the benefit.  I can see how it could be viewed the other way.  When is the next FAQ due!?

 

Yeah, I know why I think she gets the bonus, but I'm not sure I like that she gets the bonus. It seems like a loophole to me, but I think my interpretation is correct (my opinion).

[Adran]

The ability gives her bonus's to her duels during a Ca action.

NOT Bonus' to Ca duels. That is an important difference.

 

If the Bonus was to duels during an attack action, then I don't think people would be argueing about it.

The fact that it is possible to make duels with other stats during a Ca action is confusing people, but once you announce you are making a Ca Action, all the duels you make during that time are duels during a Ca Action.

 

If the bonus was to Ca duels only, then it would say that.

 

Sorry, to me this is clear cut, and there is only one way to read it.

 

Horror duels and manipulative duels take place duing an action. - They are part of Step 1 of an action

It gives  to duels during a Ca Action.

 

Is the action currently beign take an Ca Action? Yes.

Is it a duel? - Yes

Does the ablity care what type of duel it is? No

Therefore you gain

[jonahmaul]

Yeah, I know why I think she gets the bonus, but I'm not sure I like that she gets the bonus. It seems like a loophole to me, but I think my interpretation is correct (my opinion).

Quite possibly.  RAW can certainly be argued that she would get the positive twist but I don't think this is as intended.  Not the first instance of things being poorly written in 'faux though.

[Kadeton]

It's a surprisingly specific non-standard wording, though - that usually makes me think that it's intentional, because it's more effort to write an entirely new rule than to copy-paste and modify an existing one.

If it said "Ancient Runes: This model gains to Ca Actions when targeting a model with Wp 6 or more," that would be fewer words, unarguable meaning, and standard wording... but it's not. Words were added to the normal phrase to make the bonus apply to all duels, so it seems likely to me that it was intended that way.

[trikk]

It's a surprisingly specific non-standard wording, though - that usually makes me think that it's intentional, because it's more effort to write an entirely new rule than to copy-paste and modify an existing one.

If it said "Ancient Runes: This model gains to Ca Actions when targeting a model with Wp 6 or more," that would be fewer words, unarguable meaning, and standard wording... but it's not. Words were added to the normal phrase to make the bonus apply to all duels, so it seems likely to me that it was intended that way.

 

I just thought the same. If it was just to the Ca duel then the wording could be simplied to what you wrote.