Who "pays" the soulstone cost of drawing 2 extra cards?

[Carcosa]

Normally this is not an issue as it can be safely assumed that the soulstone comes out of the crew's "general pool", but the issue arises with the interaction of Lucius' Devil's Deal ability which allows him to deal 3 damage to a friendly model within 6" to gain a soulstone after the action and the Wings of Darkness upgrade that states that "the model" paying for the card draw may draw 3 cards rather than 2.

 

This leads to 2 questions.

 

1:  Is the card drawing ability paid for by a model, which allows for the interpretation of Lucius being able to use Devils deal to "offset" the cost of the card draw?

 

OR

 

2: Does the text of Devils deal stating "After the action" render the point moot as Card drawing can be seen as "not an action" therefore ineligible to interact with Devils Deal.

 

After consideration, I am inclined to go with option 2, but I'm not 100% sure.

[zFiend]

But it was very well written and articulated post on behalf of the point.

[Dirial]

But it was very well written and articulated post on behalf of the point.

 

Right.

[zFiend]

Right.

 

But I think it's quite clear how this thing is supposed to play out.

[Soul Puppet]

I've used Wings of Darkness and Devil's Deal together and none of my opponent's has ever questioned it.

 

I would like to see this clarified properly, not least as it affects what models I will buy to use with Lucius going forwards.

[Carcosa]

Has anyone got the text handy for the description of Upgrades?

I ask because in some games the rulebook, while serving as the core rules in most situations state that the intent of cards is to grant abilities or break the core rues in a limited fashion for specific models. If this is the case here, it may be worth having the text available.

If not, carry on   

[Soul Puppet]

There's nothing about the Upgrades that changes things. The only wording that would is the Breaking the Rules section on page 19 of the little book. It's quite wordy but paraphrasing it says:

 

When a special rule contradicts the core rules, follow the special rule instead.

[Myyrä]

Has anyone got the text handy for the description of Upgrades?

I ask because in some games the rulebook, while serving as the core rules in most situations state that the intent of cards is to grant abilities or break the core rues in a limited fashion for specific models. If this is the case here, it may be worth having the text available.

If not, carry on

Special rules overriding general does not apply here because they don't actually contradict each other.

Devil's Deal Ability (Lucius): After this models spends a Soulstone, it may deal 3 damage which may not be reduced to a friendly model within 6 to add 1 Soulstone to this Crew's Soulstone Pool after resolving the current Action.

Whisper From the Other Place Ability (On Wings of Darkness Upgrade): When this model spends a Soulstone in the Draw Phase to draw cards, it may draw and discard three cards instead of two.

Laika Already posted the abilities in question. Neither of the upgrades allows a model to spend soulstones for anything unusual. Whisper From the Other Place allows model to draw an extra card when it uses soulstone to draw cards at the start of turn. Too bad models never spend soulstones for card drawing because the rules don't give them permission to do such things.

[Carcosa]

The card -does-

It explicitly states -When this model spends a soulstone-

 

I'm not trying to be a dick about this, in fact I don't mind which way it goes, but I would like to know, ya know

[Bodiless]

I agree with Carcosa. I used this combination in the one game I played with Lucius because the wording of Whisper was so straightforward that I didn't think about it any further. When this model spends a stone means that model is spending the stone. I agree that they probably didn't mean to have the master be the actual model spending the stone to draw cards, but that is what the plain text of the upgrade says. 

[solkan]

I agree with Carcosa. I used this combination in the one game I played with Lucius because the wording of Whisper was so straightforward that I didn't think about it any further. When this model spends a stone means that model is spending the stone. I agree that they probably didn't mean to have the master be the actual model spending the stone to draw cards, but that is what the plain text of the upgrade says. 

 

Unfortunately, that's the "It clearly benefits me to do so, so I didn't question whether I could do it" not-an-argument.

[Ausplosions]

So you are okay with not being able to spend to draw cards once your master is gone? What about spending to reflip initiative?

[Kadeton]

So you are okay with not being able to spend to draw cards once your master is gone? What about spending to reflip initiative?

They're not mutually exclusive, per se - the player or the model could spend a stone to draw cards.

I think a cleaner solution would be to change Whispers from the Other Place from "When this model..." to "When this model's controller..." No further rules inconsistencies AFAICT.

[Carcosa]

I suggest a wording change to "while this model is in play, you may draw an additional card and discard an additional card when you spend a soulstone in the draw phase"

 

What say you all?

[Myyrä]

The card -does-

It explicitly states -When this model spends a soulstone-

 

I'm not trying to be a dick about this, in fact I don't mind which way it goes, but I would like to know, ya know

If a model has an ability that allows it to draw an extra card when it is buried in horse manure, that ability would not be very useful, because there is no way in Malifaux's rules to bury models in horse manure.

[Carcosa]

Despite your example Myyra, all you are doing is proving that clarification should be asked for. I don't care what the outcome is, I just want the clarification. If you read wings as written, it will never have a use because the model never spends the stone according to the rulebook, therefore a waste of text and an ability.

[lusciousmccabe]

Yeah, everyone knows the rule doesn't work as written. The debate is more about what to do about it at this stage.

 

Also, there's nothing stopping you from physically burying the model in horse manure, but the smell might be a bit NPE.

[Dirial]

I suggested an alternative wording above. Admittedly, it's mutually exclusive with profiting from Devil's Deal. If that isn't the intent, Devil's Deal should be worded differently, too.

[Carcosa]

Exactly Luscious, I just want clarification. Hell, I gave up the argument in my opening post to a degree  

[Carcosa]

Dirial.

Devils deal can stand due to the wording of "an action". As long as drawing cards is no longer associated with the model and being a potential action, it sorts itself out. At best I would change the opening preamble to "When this model spends a soulstone as part of an action" blah blah blah.

[Dirial]

Dirial.

Devils deal can stand due to the wording of "an action". As long as drawing cards is no longer associated with the model and being a potential action, it sorts itself out. At best I would change the opening preamble to "When this model spends a soulstone as part of an action" blah blah blah.

 

Misunderstanding. If my rewording above was used, Devil's Deal doesn't need to be sorted out. But it then couldn't be used with Drawing Cards. If it should be (by wish of the designers) it has to be reworded as well.

[Myyrä]

Dirial.

Devils deal can stand due to the wording of "an action". As long as drawing cards is no longer associated with the model and being a potential action, it sorts itself out. At best I would change the opening preamble to "When this model spends a soulstone as part of an action" blah blah blah.

That would be a cuddle, because it would prevent Lucius from using Devil's Deal when preventing damage for example from burning.

[Carcosa]

Well, which one do you want to screw over?

If text says part of an action, then it should be read as part of an action, being situationally flexible is not the way to go.

[Dirial]

Well, which one do you want to screw over?

If text says part of an action, then it should be read as part of an action, being situationally flexible is not the way to go.

 

It doesn't, actually. It just specifies the timing. Nowhere does it say that the SS has to be used as part of an action.

[Bodiless]

Unfortunately, that's the "It clearly benefits me to do so, so I didn't question whether I could do it" not-an-argument.

 

Not at all. I'm totally fine with it getting reworded so that it doesn't work this way, since that is what I think they intended. The part that was clear is the text of Whisper. It was so clear that I didn't go hunting through the main rules to see if that wording broke something else. 

[Soul Puppet]

Answered now in the FAQ: change the word 'Model' to the word 'Crew', so no Devil's Deal for Lucius.