Guardian worth 8 points?

[Khyodee]

So my question to you is the guardian actually worth his 8 point cost? In a Hoffman crew I understand its worth as it loops in a Ml 7 and Df 6 in one model, but is it worth taking in other crews?

 

Lets consider his pluses:

• Df 6
• Armor +1 with trigger to go to Armor +3
• 3" engagement with Ml 7
• 0 Action used to protect and Heal masters (especially ones with good defenses)

and Minuses:

• Weak damage track for 8 points
• Competes with Francisco for equal points and similar use (holding up models, protecting models

 

I see his uses, but he is one of those models I think heavily on before dropping 8 points for him, while Francisco is an easy choice most of the time. Thoughts?

[Myyrä]

If you compare almost anything to Francisco, they are going to fall short. Guardian is worth its points in certain situations but not always. It's a good place for a model to be.

[Dirial]

If you compare almost anything to Francisco, they are going to fall short. Guardian is worth its points in certain situations but not always. It's a good place for a model to be.

 

Yeah, this. Also, who plays Francisco for 8 SS?

 

Also, Francisco likes to discard cards and SS, which could also be considered as part of his cost. From my experience, he is good bit more expensive than a Guardian.

[decker_cky]

[Myyrä]

Yeah, this. Also, who plays Francisco for 8 SS?

 

Also, Francisco likes to discard cards and SS, which could also be considered as part of his cost. From my experience, he is good bit more expensive than a Guardian.

Yeah, Francisco is a 9ss model with self heal, hard to kill and only one upgrade slot.

 

I'm not sure about Francisco being more expensive than guardian because he has to discard cards. Even if you don't use any of his discard abilities, he seems to compare pretty well against guardian. You are going to end up cheating a lot more cards for him than guardian too, but that's mostly because his attack is very good, but I don't exactly see that as a weakness.

[Dirial]

Yeah, Francisco is a 9ss model with self heal, hard to kill and only one upgrade slot.

 

I'm not sure about Francisco being more expensive than guardian because he has to discard cards. Even if you don't use any of his discard abilities, he seems to compare pretty well against guardian. You are going to end up cheating a lot more cards for him than guardian too, but that's mostly because his attack is very good, but I don't exactly see that as a weakness.

 

All I'm saying is that Francisco can be hard on the control hand and SS cache while the Guardian is not so much, at least in my games. I'll admit that I topdeck an unusual amount of 7s and 8s of Rams with his (0), though.

[Myyrä]

All I'm saying is that Francisco can be hard on the control hand and SS cache while the Guardian is not so much, at least in my games. I'll admit that I topdeck an unusual amount of 7s and 8s of Rams with his (0), though.

Have you tried him with Sidir? He's much easier on your control hand if you don't have to cheat cards in to hit with your Ml attacks. Although Sidir himself likes to discard a card every now and then to heal himself, I find him to be a net win for my control hand.

[Dirial]

Have you tried him with Sidir? He's much easier on your control hand if you don't have to cheat cards in to hit with your Ml attacks. Although Sidir himself likes to discard a card every now and then to heal himself, I find him to be a net win for my control hand.

 

Not played much of Sidir, sadly. He's on my bucket list for sure.

[ArcticPangolin]

Not played much of Sidir, sadly. He's on my bucket list for sure.

Get on it! Ruthless and immunity to Lures, but it's Empty the Magazine that I love, especially against most summoners. It's also nice to be handing out Slow for a change instead of receiving it.

 

Not to mention those odd special games where you naturally flip   half the time against Ml attacks.

[Carcosa]

Don't forget folks, some of the costs in SS Is for the synergy they supply to their "team models". Frankie plays off the family characteristic in the Latigo's and the guardian plays off his usefulness to Hoffman power loops. Looking at models in a vacuum is really not going to do much for you when you are trying to understand costing. 

[Dirial]

Don't forget folks, some of the costs in SS Is for the synergy they supply to their "team models". Frankie plays off the family characteristic in the Latigo's and the guardian plays off his usefulness to Hoffman power loops. Looking at models in a vacuum is really not going to do much for you when you are trying to understand costing. 

 

Well, while that might be true, this is the very reason for the question "Is he worth his cost outside of his thematic crew?"

[zFiend]

I have found him to be of use in certain builds and strategies. Lately he has been left out as I have new models that usually take his place. Namely Francisco and/or Sidir. Those guys eat a lot of stones but rarely I find myself regretting the investment.

[Carcosa]

@Dirial

No, most models are not worth their cost outside of their "grouping" and rarely would I consider a guardian outside of a Hoffman crew. Does that make it a "bad minion".........

I am not sure it does, it just makes other masters consider what they want to do with it more carefully. Perdita protected by a guardian because they are expecting assassinate?

[Dirial]

it just makes other masters consider what they want to do with it more carefully.

 

This doesn't sound like "not worth their cost", more like "too cheap in the thematic crew". Also, I simply pointed out why we discuss this thread in the first place.

[PraetorDragoon]

I personally would use a Guardian to proctect areas. He can give himself defensive +2 with his (0). I wouldn't use him as an offensive piece, but as a defensive/support piece, I think he's worth his 8ss. 

 

Won't work in all situations, but thats a given.

[Carcosa]

@Dirial

Not at all, they are right costed for their thematically appropriate crew, they are expensive outside for their abilities.

As P-D points out, they are good but expensive models outside their theme, but if you have a -plan- for them they are worth the cost. Defensive 2 on someone is pretty hard to overcome, especially if they are defensive already.

[Dirial]

@Dirial

Not at all, they are right costed for their thematically appropriate crew, they are expensive outside for their abilities.

As P-D points out, they are good but expensive models outside their theme, but if you have a -plan- for them they are worth the cost. Defensive 2 on someone is pretty hard to overcome, especially if they are defensive already.

 

Maybe your definition of right costed is simply different then mine. Good choice without a plan is too cheap for me, not rightly costed.

[Carcosa]

@ Dirial

Dude, that I all but the opposite of what I am saying!!

Good choice without a plan should be penalized, but good choice due to synergy should not. Like wise, out of plan use of synergy should not be penalized to harshy either.

[Dirial]

I don't really know why you open up this kind of meta discussion in the first place. Your definition seems to be different than mine, but that's just semantics, and doesn't answer the question of the OP.

 

So you say you nearly never consider the Guardian outside of Hoffman crews. Why is that?

[Myyrä]

I don't really know why you open up this kind of meta discussion in the first place. Your definition seems to be different than mine, but that's just semantics, and doesn't answer the question of the OP.

 

So you say you nearly never consider the Guardian outside of Hoffman crews. Why is that?

 

I rarely consider Guardian outside Hoffman crews these days, because Francisco exists. If I want to bring another model that can protect its friends in the same crew, I bring Sidir, because of the synergy he has with Franc with promises aura.

 

I consider taking Guardian when I really want to go over the top with the protection thing and bring three models to do that or when I want to bring second protection model to Perdita crew. Sidir doesn't shine quite as much in Perdita crew as he does with other Guild masters, because Franc is pretty much the only one there gaining significant benefits from Promises aura offensively. With Perdita the choice between Guardian and Sidir ofter comes down to whether I'm expecting more attacks against my Df or Wp.

[Carcosa]

No, I am saying consider the cost, and lack of some synergy before you do so. If you can find a good use for the guardian with another model that some may have not considered, more power to you!!

Think outside the box is good, but it probably will cost you a stone or two to do it.

 

That's not "bad" at all.

[Adran]

The Guardian looks better when you have low crows in your hand.

I love hitting  1 wound models with my shield knowing that they will die.

 

I disagree with Carcosas views on models costs within "theme" crews and other crews. Yes, you are paying for abilities that you may or may not use outside their theme. But I belive most models should work without having to be taken with a set model, otherwise on the whole the design failed.

Guardian is slightly Tankier than Fransisco. He may or may not make another model tankier (that depends on hand demands and so forth). He does less damage.

Being a minion can make him better in some cases ( I'm thinking McCabe and Lucius). He has a longer Ml Range as well, which can make a nice bonus.

 

On the whole I think he is worth his 8 points if you make good use of him. But he desn't belong in all lists.

[PraetorDragoon]

I gree with Adran. He doesn't belong in all lists, but if you can make use of his strengths, then he is certainly worth his 8ss. 

[decker_cky]

I could see Guardian + Francisco being chosen before Francisco + Sidir in a Justice crew. Justice with Df7 and     to Df duels is terrifying for anything she's engaged with. 

[Myyrä]

I could see Guardian + Francisco being chosen before Francisco + Sidir in a Justice crew. Justice with Df7 and     to Df duels is terrifying for anything she's engaged with.

I find that it's not quite as terrifying as Lady J with to Ml flips, but that's just my opinion. The Guardian is good too. Often Sidir doesn't even bother to protect Justice but is protecting Francisco instead, while giving them both to Ml and Wp and emptying magazines upon enemy.

If your opponent has to kill Sidir to get to Franc to be able to touch Lady J, he is in for a bad time.