EntrepeNinja Posted March 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 The Ability of the Mages, Resonance, says "...up to a maxium of + ." Thaaaat's what I was looking for. Yeah, Librarians. Final nail in the coffin for them for me for this crew. One heal: (That's a (1) that's harder to cast than December's Favor) A CA6 Attack: (With a gun, and "only" the scribe trigger... Meaning, no recast trigger, and no ice column) Perhaps more survivable (Armor 1 and a higher DF), though with Frozen Statue trigger, it'll be tough to really nail that down. Academic- but I could as easily get an oxfordian mage for the same slot for 2 less stones, and more relevant triggers. I suppose the benefit of 2 mages and a librarian is topped off resonance and you don't NEED to stick a silent one with them, but I dunno... Save for the push capping off resonance isn't important. Getting one, making all the other triggers auto happen, is good enough. (Excpet the 0 action. That's cool. But again. Why not three mages if you're concerned...) ENinja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Thaaaat's what I was looking for. Yeah, Librarians. Final nail in the coffin for them for me for this crew. One heal: (That's a (1) that's harder to cast than December's Favor) A CA6 Attack: (With a gun, and "only" the scribe trigger... Meaning, no recast trigger, and no ice column) Perhaps more survivable (Armor 1 and a higher DF), though with Frozen Statue trigger, it'll be tough to really nail that down. Academic- but I could as easily get an oxfordian mage for the same slot for 2 less stones, and more relevant triggers. I suppose the benefit of 2 mages and a librarian is topped off resonance and you don't NEED to stick a silent one with them, but I dunno... Save for the push capping off resonance isn't important. Getting one, making all the other triggers auto happen, is good enough. (Excpet the 0 action. That's cool. But again. Why not three mages if you're concerned...) ENinja Silent One need an 8 to heal, Librarian need a 7. Statue feels like consolation price to me, Df 3 is really horrible. Though a good thing about Statue is that you want do your attacks in a certain order so if your opponent quickly want to kill your Silent One it can mess with his activation order. They also have mediocre Wp 4 and have no trigger (though Statue will reduce all damage once it's up). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surly Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Since this thread pretty much turned into a Librarian/Silent One discussion - can someone please explain the synergy here with the Silent One? Just read the card (again), but I'm not seeing it. I mean the Librarian could be ok since he's Academic, but what else does he bring to the table? If it's only for the Healing I find 8SS a bit harsh for it. His cast is nice but and we are already bringing 3 of the Oxford Mages to the table, so I'm not sure I'd take more shooting. Silent One as mentioned I can't see the synergy here. Ok, she heals too, but would I so desperately need healing anyway? For me it sounds more like we would take the Librarian because she's Academic and aren't that much concerned what else she brings. Don't want to say Silent One is bad, but simply out of theme. Therefore imo Silent One is just as good as everywhere, probably the same as e.g. December Acolyte or Mech Rider. Both don't really add much synergy since they're neiter M&SU or Academic but simply good models that find their way into many lists (as does Silent One). (and yeah, I'm sure that Mech Rider summons M&SU, but it's not so easy finding non-synergy stuff in Arcanists tbh ) Again though - if I'm simply not seeing the synergy here just throw a rock at my head and bury me in the backyard PS: the more I think about it, the less I like the Librarian. 8SS is just too much for my taste for what she adds to a list ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 To me the discussion is about what healer to take if you want one. One of Ironsides' "things" is to pull people in, force them to hit her, and stop them from leaving. It's far from the only way to play her, but if you decide to do it I think you will also want a healer. Mouse is kind of sucky since his heal requires and you'll want to the high for Ironsides herself leaving pretty few cards to actually heal with. And here I think Silent One is better than the Librarian, cheaper, (0) heal, and no on the attack. Fluff wise I think Silent One and Librarian is about equally thematic. Librarian is an outside mercenary, Silent One is crazy lady seconded by an ally of the M&SU. I don't see Academic as having any real fluff weight. If you plan to run Ironsides more cautiously and not try to create a big punchy ball I guess the discussion is moot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybarite Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Being able to heal Ironsides and shoot into her combat without randomising is a strong case of synergy in my opinion Fluffwise I guess the Oxfordian Mages might have more fun discussing academics and good books to read with the Librarian than the mute priestesses of December ^^' 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kogan Style Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 But taking a Librarian DOES allow you to spread the mages a little, either forming 2 groups where everyone gets or have them in a gun line with each model 3" apart so 2 Mages in the middle get full while the Librarian on one end doesn't need it and the Nemesis Warded Mage on the other end of the line can get the thanks to the Nemesis. Also playing against the Iron Zombies will be fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordon Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 IMO the healing you gain from either model is not worth the trade for other available options. For 6ss you are competing the ox mages for silent ones and I value M&SU much more than a (0) heal ability. The mages also bring a ton more that Ironsides would favour over the silent one. You can make an argument that giving out slow will offset the need for a heal as things will generally be hitting less. Also the auto trigger for a push is another huge deal for ironsides, not to mentions all the warding rune goodness. At 7ss the Librarian is competing with Gunsmiths and again M&SU I feel is so much more potent then a single heal ability. Even more so on the gunsmiths than the ox mages as the smiths can actually keep pace with ironsides and not loose out on effectiveness. They bring a ton of utility and under hand picked men, they can get pretty bonkers. I just don't see the value a librarian brings vs the sheer versatility and brutality of a gunsmith. There are just too many great M&SU options available to really justify anything else IMO. Why take librarians/silent ones when you could instead be taking Willy, Johan or the Firestarter as these models are just insanely good running with Ironsides and the opponent will be too busy dealing with the bigger threats other than ironsides too even focus on her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 IMO the healing you gain from either model is not worth the trade for other available options. My favorite healer for IS (and this is untested, but I really want to) is Kaeris in a duel match and Purifying Flame. I've had her take the most vicious beating and survive turn after turn on her 14 Wds and HTK, imagine how immortal she'd be with an effective... to throw out a number... regen +4 (1 from a mage and some more from friendlies giving burning). It's ridiculous. But in a normal game, I've really found the Stand Up, Stand Tall to be useful. The enemy spends a good amount of time knocking her health down (and pay sfor it with his/her own wounds in retaliation), and suddenly she heals (for example) 5 from adrenaline... 5 more wounds that they'll have to pay for dearly again to reclaim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surly Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 @Jordon: Librarian will cost you 8SS when hired outside Outcasts. Being able to heal Ironsides and shoot into her combat without randomising is a strong case of synergy in my opinion Yeah ... ok ... but that probably falls under "basic Arcanist synergy" I'd say Like a Acolyte who slows an enemy who won't be able to make a charge into Ironsides. So if this already counts, I can't think of any model that doesn't synergize Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 You can't give Adrenaline to anyone else, Frontline Leadership | Protective gives it to Ironsides if you discard a card. You can give Regenerate to Ironsides with Doom Ward though. Looking back over this thread... whoa. I've been reading that upgrade entirely wrong (to my detriment). I have used this upgrade to give adrenaline to my friendlies in games (fortunately, not in a tournament setting). I thought it was a cool concept to give them the condition, but now I'm thinking that I've been starving IS of adrenaline all this time! Forget the HTK models, next game with IS, I'm going all-out brawler... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakeshit Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I prefer Johan and mouse to heal. If you have a bubble if iornside Joss Johan mouse and maybe a metal gamin the 2ap heal on Johan is worth it as you healing all the models. I personally think the mages are awesome with iornside with warding ruins on her and Joss. Make her very survivable with regen 1 immune to conditions and +ve to defense against an enemy master. With regen 1 and adrenaline and heals she will have no problem taking a punch. The warding runes are also awesome against casters as the cant lure you and will have to spend a lot of resource to get triggers if they can spend ss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzakuni Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 so is the only way to play ironsides to just buff her up and send her out? Does she have problems running schemes/strategies if her crew mainly moves to buff her?? I want to get into playing with her but Im trying to look at overall picture, but everything I have seen has been basically buff her up and launch her. Or is that because that is her main forte with the adrenaline mechanic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybarite Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 She can help her crew move around too. Pull gunsmiths and mages towards her, where gunsmiths can gain fast in the meantime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordon Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I think Ironsides is deceptively complex in how she wants to be played. I like to think of her as more of an opportunist than a strait up brawler. I've played her a few times and the only I can say is that she requires patience to work correctly. Other than the fact that she has H2K, she really doesn't have anything else to keep her alive in combat. Unlike Mei, who can jump into a large group of enemy models and remain relatively fine due to armour, higher Df and a Df trigger to get her out of trouble. Attempting the same thing with Ironsides is a great way to get her killed in a hurry. Even her attacks are relatively weak when comparing it to other "combat" masters. She has the capability of putting out large amounts of damage, but it is very reliant on adrenaline and cards. Again when comparing her to Mei, she simply can't put out the same levels of damage. Fortunately thats not really reason you should be taking Ironsides though. The best results I had using her was as more of a support model. Sure you can punch things to death, but the real weight of her list is with hand picked men. This ability can take relatively average models and turn them into monsters capable of hitting well above their point cost. This usually presents enough of a threat that opponents will often ignore Ironsides as she is not the one doing all the damage. I get a lot more use staying back in a group of M&SU models and luring enemy models with her "you looking at me" ability and letting the rest of my list tear it apart. I will often store up adrenaline from a safe distance waiting until my opponents crew has been softened up significantly then I go all out. It's usually around turn 4 or 5 that the rest of my crew will break apart and accomplish schemes and Toni goes wild taking on the remaining enemy's. I'm not going to lie, I often get her killed, but most times it's totally worth it. Overall I think she will take a great deal of finesse to get great results. Knowing your opponents crew also seems to benefit her more so than other masters too. She's probably the toughest arcanist master to use correctly, but once you unlock her secrets, she's a real blast to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FertileSpade Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 I'm excited to run this crew as well. The pics look sweet and the rules are intriguing. I'd be tempted to try Oxford Mages (2) and a Silent One. Essence of Power sounds like a good choice. Here's my question: do we really believe they'll be out in April? feeling a little cynical about their release schedule but sure hope I'm wrong! Mech Rider/Johan....yes, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordon Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 What upgrades do people generally take with her? I find she has a lot of great options available and the choice is not obvious like on other masters. Even the generic upgrades provide some very interesting options for her. Recharge Soulstone: Probably not something you'd take facing ressers but Ironsides can be a massive drain on stones and the fact that it's rare2 means you can likely get double duty from this upgrade as Ironsides loves to bunch up with her crew. Arcane Reservoir: Great for frontline leadership and the fact that Toni has uses for every suit so every card can go a long way. Its also good if your running the mages for their furious casting. Seize the day: I don't know of any master in which going first is more important. Adrenaline can be heavily influenced by going first and tossing out Slow from her uppercut or strait up killing models can really help keep mer alive. Imbued Protection: This can be paired up nicely with challenge the crowd. The damage reduction can also save her in a pinch. The rest are not bad choices but I don't think they will take up a spot over all the other great options she has available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EntrepeNinja Posted March 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 You forgot Warding Runes. :3 You can get regen one out of it, and shut down a lot of CA actions. I usually like Challenge and Sieze the Day, myself, with either Warding Runes or Imbued Protection depending on the day... Don't really know why I chose one or the other. Been thinking about giving frontline a go. ENinja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 Frontline is pretty much required if you want to get anything fun out of Ironsides (in my experience, ymmv) - the discard to gain adrenaline allows her to use the (0) on her card to engage, and the (0) on the upgrade improves her already considerable tarpitability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordon Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 I generally try to focus more on utilizing "hand picked men" than I do adrenaline. I find that adrenaline just got me in trouble most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 Oh, I agree. I said "fun," not reliable... And she can do some really fun stuff when she does get adrenaline going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EntrepeNinja Posted March 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 Oh, I agree. I said "fun," not reliable... And she can do some really fun stuff when she does get adrenaline going. Touche'. An extremely good point. It's easy to get wrapped up in the competitive side of this game- but the game is fun. And going after an adrenaline fueled rampage could be totally impressive, entertaining. ENinja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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