The Godlyness Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 So any person who plays Frank is a noob and can't win with out him as guild? Trying to follow how he such negatively impacts the game so much. Have you looked at papa loco. Fives out to damage flips and it stays just like el mayor. And one could say it impacts the game s Heck of a lot more than +2 df and +wp. But no el mayor is super cheese and every one who uses it doesn't know what they are doing when playing guild. I disagree I see him as a model that dies like any other henchman. Not very quickly. But most assuredly not impossible to kill. But wait he gives a passive buff. But only if he is hugging that person when he activates. So he can't very well walk off on his own if he is trying to abuse this "op" ability. Next you will tell me how summoning is a crutch and how all summoners are op and break the game. Then you will tell me things drop scheme markers with out using a (1) is op and breaks the game. After that you will say anything that impacts the opponent breaks the game. Or change how you play the game. Adapt crush and conquer. Or don't lose and say Mech rider, cisco, levy are just too good and should Winn all the time. Which reminds me. How often do you hear guild winning tournaments? No often I would say. And guild and only build can take this op model yet somehow they are never on top of well anything. So I guess I am confused how this model is so op. Good when used. Right yes. Op not even close. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingRodian Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 No, I didn't say noob, that people don't know what they are doing when they take him, that you can't adapt or he was an auto win button. I will say that El Mayor is a very powerful ability with an unusually long duration, and between Companion and general Family movement shenanigans it is very easy to stay within 2 inches of your target, especially if you time it so you have nearly two turns of El Mayor duration from the last application to apply it again. I would also point out that I never said he couldn't be killed....but I will say that with the auto-include Wade In upgrade he is literally Hard to Kill with a self heal as a (0) action, the ability to use Soulstones, and the option to instead use his (0) action for Finesse I would say he takes a disproportionately large amount of effort to get rid of him....and you have to get rid of him pronto to shut down that El Mayor nonsense. So yeah, he is a bit too good for being a 8 stone model, 9 with his practically mandatory upgrade. He is a bit too easy of a choice in many Guild crews because he makes things so much easier, a bit like training wheels. I think Papa Loco is good for a different thread, and the problems with summoners in smaller games has been well covered elsewhere, as have the problems with the mechanical rider. Winning tournaments is a meaningless measure. No need to jump to conclusions, I think you may have misread my earlier post to mean that I was whining that Frank was an "I win" button. He isn't, but he does need some toning down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted February 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 No he doesn't need toning down. About the only thing I might agree with would be that El mayor (and Hold This) could be conditions. But there are plenty of 9ss models out there that are just as hard if not harder to take down.... with higher Df, more wounds, armor, regeneration, HTW, HTK... what have you. Hell the blessed of December has higher Df, more wounds, HTW, and eat your fill. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 No, I didn't say noob, that people don't know what they are doing when they take him, that you can't adapt or he was an auto win button. I will say that El Mayor is a very powerful ability with an unusually long duration, and between Companion and general Family movement shenanigans it is very easy to stay within 2 inches of your target, especially if you time it so you have nearly two turns of El Mayor duration from the last application to apply it again. What family movement shenanigans? perdita? and well his one action enfriente? or the additional upgrade Hermanos De Armas? Frank by himself does not just move around nor does the family besides perdita. they pay for that. I would also point out that I never said he couldn't be killed....but I will say that with the auto-include Wade In upgrade he is literally Hard to Kill with a self heal as a (0) action, the ability to use Soulstones, and the option to instead use his (0) action for Finesse I would say he takes a disproportionately large amount of effort to get rid of him....and you have to get rid of him pronto to shut down that El Mayor nonsense. So if you use his heal you are not using Finesse. and correct me if i am wrong but Finesse works only versus ML actions...so Shooting him in his Mustached face seems like easy mode being df 5 and all. and that heal a Suited 8. SS help but that all depends if you have them or need to use them on other things like prevention. or are you using hermanos (0). but df 5 8 wounds, not hard to get rid of. Now this is coming from a guy who just picked up Frank and in the 3 games i have played him i have not used his melee attack once. But i have used his gun a few times. he has died in 2 of the 3 games. hannah did him in once, and this last game gremlins were dumb lucking the hell out of him. so many shots. being in hard cover did not matter when walk focus shoot. me be sad. I am Trying to Find out why he is "OP" but for the life of me i cant find it. maybe i should run him up and hit them with his sword but then i am not using el mayor. (i dont play perdita) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I agree with most of Godlyness' points. At first, he seemed super strong to me, but after playing him a lot, he is just a good model. Far from auto-include. I see the point of El Mayor being a good buff with unusual game mechanics, and I see the point of him being very adaptable. What I have seen is that people who play against him, often have this 'OP!' reaction the first times, and I know that people like to categorize models and then let them stay in that category. So, just for a more informed discussion, and not to imply that this is the only reliable way to get an opinion about him: Who has played him a lot, and was overwhelmed with the success? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I have played him a lot, but it was mostly zFiend who has been overwhelmed by my success. I don't really see Francisco as being too good, but instead most guild models not being good enough. Guild's great tournament success seems to support my theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I don't really see Francisco as being too good, but instead most guild models not being good enough. Guild's great tournament success seems to support my theory. Not sure if joking.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 <MOD HAT> A reminder; You don't have to agree with each other but you will be nice to and respectful of each other, or else. </MOD HAT> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I've only played against him so far and whilst he seems frustrating I don't think he seems any more OP than any number of numerous other examples in the game. The first time you come across something unfamiliar can be pretty daunting. The fact that is lasts until his next activation is probably the real issue (or maybe it should only be a choice of Df or Wp rather than both) but if you kill him it goes away! Also luring him out of position or forcing him to activate somehow will get rid of it. I could see it be frustrating when Assassinate is around if you're trying to accomplish that but as always Malifaux is a game of strats and schemes. Is having a +2 Df/Wp stopping you accomplishing your goals? Sure it might make a Master stick around longer and be a bit frustrating but if you can get around that by focusing on your goals then it's not that much of an issue. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadface Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 why is Cisco op He isn't. Has synergy and plays well with others but definitely Is not op. But that is a matter of perception 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 He isn't. Has synergy and plays well with others but definitely Is not op. But that is a matter of perception Well, that's what we're trying to do here: Get a feeling for the perceptions. Why do you think he isn't OP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I have played him a lot, but it was mostly zFiend who has been overwhelmed by my success. I don't really see Francisco as being too good, but instead most guild models not being good enough. Guild's great tournament success seems to support my theory. Well it's the Perdita + Francisco combo, but then again the fact that you state "I wanna shoot something today" and the terrain is the reflection of that sentence might have something to do with this success of yours. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Well it's the Perdita + Francisco combo, but then again the fact that you state "I wanna shoot something today" and the terrain is the reflection of that sentence might have something to do with this success of yours. Always with the excuses... I seem to recall that last time I used Perdita against you, we were both playing Guild, so it's hardly fair to claim that the field was favoring me before the game. I have also used Frank with Lady Justice and McCabe and those games went quite well too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I seem to recall that last time I used Perdita against you, we were both playing Guild, so it's hardly fair to claim that the field was favoring me before the game. ZFiend is a Guildie? WHAT? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 ZFiend is a Guildie? WHAT? He's been known to indulge every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 ZFiend is a Guildie? WHAT? Don't stress, Dirial. He's just collecting info for his Resser cohorts as they plot to overthrow the status quo. All is right in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Don't stress, Dirial. He's just collecting info for his Resser cohorts as they plot to overthrow the status quo. All is right in the world. Not sure if I'm relieved or frightened. No, quizzical. Definitely quizzical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 <MOD HAT> Inappropriate post removed. Y'all had a warning, now I've had to get the mod stick out. We're done here. </MOD HAT> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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