candy?

[izikial]

Over the past 8 months I have slowly gone from thinking a nurse is a waste of Ss to thinking its the best answer resers get to any big guy

Well I now want turning round on candy, I remember on a malifools or cheated fates they say she is almost an auto include with lucias and she is so strong, 1 podcast even said she is so strong we don't need to discuss her (which didn't help),

So what makes her so strong, particularly in reference to lucias

[zFiend]

Good topic. I have only played her with Pandora and she seems supersolid. Looking forward to reading more.

[asrian]

Ok, my take on Candy.

First off she's a Henchman, which means that you can give her some damn nice upgrades (I can only speak of Neverborn ones though as I don't play Guild) and she can use Soul Stones for added aggression or defense. She's also a Mimic, Lost, and Woe which means she fits in nicely with Lucius, Pandora, Hamelin, or any Neverborn Master.

Possible Neverborn Upgrades:

- Best Behavior - Her personal upgrade which is defense oriented. She can take a 3 AP cast action (remember she's casting expert so can cast 3 times a turn or do this once) makes her very hard to kill. Mainly use it once you have her in a position where you want her, or you just need to help keep her alive. It also gives her a 0 AP action that can Bury her and put her back in her deployment zone. It's a fast way to get her out of trouble, or if used turn 4 (if she's the bodyguard target) means you can drop her back, then spend Turn 5 double walking 10 inches up to score your points.

- Depression - Like nurses, it gives her the ability to discard a card to gain that suit for all cast actions. Also gives OTHER woes in LoS to her a Cast action that can cause target model to gain a condition to activate last in a turn

- Useless Duplications - Another defense upgrade that helps protect against  actions, and gives her the ability to discard to give friendly mimics with 3" a bit of protection against   (She is friendly to herself as well)

- Mimic's Blessing - Gives her protection against Sh and attacks from Charges as long as she hasn't activated (coupled with her in built Manipulation makes her extremely hard to hit) and if she dies you get to draw and discard 2 cards

- Fears Given Form - Makes all models (friend or foe) who activate in her engagement range (a respectful 3") take a Df test or else suffer 3 damage (probably my personal favorite for her as it also coincides with her Sweet and Sour 3 s.

There is also the Pact and Nexus upgrades, but I have honestly never used those. Of the above, Fears Given Form and Mimic's Blessing are my two favorites for her.

As for Candy's abilities (front of card), she comes with a very nice spread of defense and passive aggressive evil.   I'm just going to go over them in general. I'll leave the specific rules for you to read on the card itself.


- Manipulative - As long as she hasn't activated, EVERY enemy attack that targets her must take a WP dual or else the action fails. That means if she's charged, BOTH attacks must make the test individually. This makes her, prior to activating, resilient

- Sweets & Sours - Two 3"  s that cause an enemy who activates first or last during a turn to either take 3 damage or become paralyzed. This is great for a Pandora crew who has the chance to make someone go first, or last via Incite or the Depression upgrade. Candy has a trigger that can cause the Mood Swings condition of letting you force the opponent to activate the model that has it, as well

- Casting Expert - Gains 1 addition AP to be used on Cast actions (which is any of her abilities). So basically this gives her 3 AP, just one is specifically for Casts


Her Actions:

- Self Loathing - A 3 Cast ability that causes the target to hit themself with their own  damage spread (can't apply triggers). This is best used against big hitters vs minions because they tend to have good damage tracks (3/4/7 vs a 1/2/3 for example).

- Wail - A moderate range 8  attack with low damage. It's good to ping a target, but mainly it's there for the trigger on a  to get Mood Swing condition on a target. I like to use it near the end of a turn. If a target is close enough (within 10"). I use her casting expert to fire this ability, going for the trigger, then double walk and put Candy within 3 of that target so that at the start of the following turn I can force the opponent to use the Mood Swing target first, who is now in range of Candy's Sweets aura and is instantly paralyzed.

Goody Basket - A 1/2/3 Rg 2" heal. Candy can heal herself or others for a 4 or higher.


I tend to play her aggressively. I try to keep her within 3 of one or more opponents so that they have a tough choice of activation as her Sweets and Sours can paralyze, or cause damage depending on activation order. And, as her engagement range is 3 I also give her the Fears Given Form upgrade so any who do activate also have to take a Df test or potentially suffer 3 damage. Basically this makes her a self-healing, manipulative pain in the rear who can use Soul Stones for defense/damage reduction. 

I'm sure others have Lucius specific tactics to use with her (movement tricks, combos, etc), but he's the only Neverborn master I don't play, so I can't go into specifics for him. Best of luck to you.

[Patzer]

Candy is great. Throw Fears Given Form and Useless Duplications on her and she will tank away like few other models. She is extremly annoying to face, and a great antidote vs aggressive opponents. Sweets and Sours is simply nasty. She works best when being in the opponents face or shutting down areas with her auras. Iggy is a great pairing since he can protect her, lower wp, and cast Incite.

 

Lucius can protect her with Red Tape and swing her about with What Lackeys Are For. Cannot think of any other direct synergies between the two, but I haven't that much experience with Lucius either.

[izikial]

Dose it work out as cost effective to spend 9 or more as on stalling things that are possibly only 6 ss

[asrian]

Dose it work out as cost effective to spend 9 or more as on stalling things that are possibly only 6 ss

That depends really. She can, quite effectively, kill big targets. With Fears Given Form and her defenses she can stall/tie up little ones, and that could mean the difference between a win/loss depending on what exactly you're tying up. Once in 3 of one or more targets she suddenly throws a monkey wrench in the enemy activation order due to Sweets & Sours and can, with Fears, be a card siphon if they are having the cheat to pass.

I've always found her worth it as it means either I'm going to screw up your models/activations/cards potentially, or else you're not going to go into one portion of the board because she's there, which means I'm screwing up your movement. Either way, I'm forcing you to stop playing the game how you want to and to make tough choices. That's my rationale with her, anyway.

[izikial]

Ah ok, I love modles that make players make choices that are both bad, take 3 damage or gain paralyzed is so much stronger mentally then either one guaranteed. Ok so I'm starting to see it, I normally wouldn't spend more than 8ss on a model with a damage spread worse than 3/4/5.

But bad options force bad plays and I do like that, I'm seeing her holding a flank while lucias and 2 illuminated push the other

How dose she get next to things? Most objective runners can push to disengage and big guys will av

[asrian]

On her own, she walks/charges to get engaged. With things like Lucius or Lilith she can get placed. She has a walk of 5, so with cast expert that means she can walk 10" a turn and still use one action.

[Vorschlag]

Consider Mimics blessing with fears given form, your already activating her late and now even if they pass the manipulative unless they walked into combat they are flipping negative flips.

Having an additional woe around like Tannen also gives you someone to drop depression on which can trigger Candy's Sweets and Sours, plus Tannen if properly protected can cause allot problems and paints a big bullseye on his head.
 

Having a doppleganger around with Useless duplications to help prop Candy and Tannen up is an option in a mimic heavy crew but you need to be careful with your activations thanks to fears given form.

Of course those three alone have now taken up over half your soulstone pool so to maximise Lucius' other abilities (i.e not him and the scribe slapping people round to benefit his mimics) you probably want to fill the rest of your crew with 5-6 stone minions, I would normally still take at least one beckoner

 

This leaves one particular hole in the crew build and that's whether or not Candy and the Doppleganger can find any nice Melee attacks to make someone hit  themselves with.

In close deployment I would say Candy is auto include, start behind cover, move, charge, run away home. 
wash/rinse/repeat.
 

[izikial]

Ok, I am also dubious about having 26 ish Ss tied up in 3 modles that arnt good at doing anything particular, maybe ill take that set up for a turf war/ squatters rights where area denile and interact prevention are strong it just feels a little unnatural to me to spend that many Ss on modles that cant reliably kill it do objectives.

[Nical]

In short, 'Synergy of Lucius with Candy' means Candy solves Lucius' Crew's problems.  

Because Lucius doesn't help her except Red Tape & What Lackeys Are For, so Candy helps Lucius in their Combination. 

Lucius' Crew usually has enough gunpower by Guardsman(Riflemen, Pathfinder, Austringer). But it means other things must do by other models.

And as we know, Candy is useful for Heal & Denial, Melee. And Candy is mimic, so Lucius can take her in any faction. Those make her Lucius' Toolbox. 

Candy can do almost all things Lucius' gunners can't. Now see some their combo.  

 

Red Tape (by Lucius & Scribe's  Trigger)

   against Minion and Mimic models. It is very powerful defensive trigger, but limited. If it works, it means Lucius or Scribe is near opponents.  

 So I think it must be used as combo with What Lackeys Are for. 

 

Devil's Deal / Good Basket  

Goody Basket 'can' be used to heal 'Free' Soulstone's damage. But I don't recommend it. Because Candy's AP can be used more important things.

And some good minions have ways to solve problem by Devil's Deal. For Example, Illuminated can heal him/herself, Guild Pathfinder can summon Trap.

They are good ability / tactical action, but you don't need to tie them. 

 

What Lackeys Are For + Fears Given Form + @(Candy's 2nd Upgrade)

Move Lucius near Opponent's models and use What Lackeys Are For to place Candy. It save Candy's Activation (Think Manipulate) and AP. 

Activate Candy and "Play" with Opponent's models. I think 2nd Upgrade is for survival, So I choose Mimic's Blessing or Best Behavior. 

Austringer's Delivery Order can be used to escape, too (2" Push). But I think It is more useful for Doppleganger or other Scheme Runner's Interacts. 

 

Mood Swing (By Candy's  Trigger) + Warden(Guardsman Model)

Mood Swing makes opponent's model activated in wrong time, and Warden can get additional   against activated model.    

So Opponent' models 'activated in wrong time' become Warden's easy targets. Warden is not powerful, but it can paralyze( ) or push( ) target.   

This combo can be used only in Lucius' Crew. 

[decker_cky]

Not for neverborn, but guild crews can give her armour +1, which makes her even more tanky.

[Bodiless]

Ah ok, I love modles that make players make choices that are both bad, take 3 damage or gain paralyzed is so much stronger mentally then either one guaranteed. Ok so I'm starting to see it, I normally wouldn't spend more than 8ss on a model with a damage spread worse than 3/4/5.

But bad options force bad plays and I do like that, I'm seeing her holding a flank while lucias and 2 illuminated push the other

How dose she get next to things? Most objective runners can push to disengage and big guys will av

 

Part of the trick with Candy is that if your opponent has a model with a big damage spread, Candy can make them use it against themselves. I had a Mature Nephilim taken out by Candy in a single activation...

[Dante83]

I used Candy for the first time today on Vassal and I have to say I'm impressed.

In turn two she was activated late in the turn. She used her ranged Ca ability (wail I think) to target Francisco (who had already activated) and hit the trigger meaning I could choose when to activate him the following turn. She then used her final 2AP to charge Francisco and used his own Ml attack to take him down to his hard to kill threshold.

At the beginning of the next turn I obviously chose to force my opponent to activate Francisco first, paralysing him and allowing me to dispatch him at my leisure!!!

[Myyrä]

I used Candy for the first time today on Vassal and I have to say I'm impressed.

In turn two she was activated late in the turn. She used her ranged Ca ability (wail I think) to target Francisco (who had already activated) and hit the trigger meaning I could choose when to activate him the following turn. She then used her final 2AP to charge Francisco and used his own Ml attack to take him down to his hard to kill threshold.

At the beginning of the next turn I obviously chose to force my opponent to activate Francisco first, paralysing him and allowing me to dispatch him at my leisure!!!

Your opponent must have been totally out of resources and possibly out of position too. Francisco is a henchman, so he can use SS to prevent damage from Wail and thus prevent him from getting the condition. He also has base Wp 6 against Candy's Ca 5 on her attack and it is quite common for him to have +2Wp from Perdita's aura and/or to Wp from Sidir's/McCabe's aura. His attack's damage range also happens to be relatively bad without Critical Strike trigger (2/3/5).

If you expect this kind of performance from Candy against Francisco, you will be quite disappointed nine times out of ten.

[zFiend]

Myyrä <3 Francisco.

[Dante83]

To be fair his hand had been pretty drained (lots of terrifying and manipulative duels) and he did use a soulstone to prevent but only reduced the damage from wail to 1 and so there was nothing he could do about the condition.

It was the first time my opponent had faced Candy and so a bit of it may have been inexperience on his part and not being fully aware of what she could do.

I appreciate that what happened was a best case scenario, but I was merely trying to illustrate Candy's potential as the original post was asking to be convinced about why she was good.

[Uktena]

To be fair his hand had been pretty drained (lots of terrifying and manipulative duels) and he did use a soulstone to prevent but only reduced the damage from wail to 1 and so there was nothing he could do about the condition.

It was the first time my opponent had faced Candy and so a bit of it may have been inexperience on his part and not being fully aware of what she could do.

I appreciate that what happened was a best case scenario, but I was merely trying to illustrate Candy's potential as the original post was asking to be convinced about why she was good.

 

In your defense, not every opponent will be fielding the Ortegas.

[AnythingBut]

In your defense, not every opponent will be fielding the Ortegas.

Just all the guild ones

[Myyrä]

I sometimes bring no Ortegas when playing Lucius. Every other guild master on the other hand...

I would also like to point out that I was not trying to diss Candy. I was merely pointing out that she usually doesn't do great against Francisco. I haven't played her much, but I have quite liked her. (I would rather bring her than Francisco with Lucius. )

[Csonti]

Interesting topic. Especially since I find Candy one of the least usable Henchmen around the park. She is certainly not completely crap in my eyes but her Ca5 is really a problem when you go against Wp which is on average a bigger stat than Df and there is plenty of Upgrades or abilities that enhance Wp or makes attacking it very difficult. The not at all easy to pull off Paralyzing trick is nice but for roughly the same price (her base cost+upgrades+possible SS use etc.) you can have so much more with other models. Usually a Mature can kill more directly and easily, 2 Waldgeists can tank longer and cover bigger territory, 3 Terror Tots can achieve VPs easier and yield valuable Activation control etc.

Will keep an eye on this conversation so that I have a chance to be converted to a Candy fan.

[Myyrä]

Interesting topic. Especially since I find Candy one of the least usable Henchmen around the park. She is certainly not completely crap in my eyes but her Ca5 is really a problem when you go against Wp which is on average a bigger stat than Df and there is plenty of Upgrades or abilities that enhance Wp or makes attacking it very difficult.

There's actually large differences between factions here. Guild has on average 0.3 points higher Wp than Arcanists and they also happen to have quite a lot of effects that raise Wp or give other bonuses to it. (Perdita, Hoffman, Scales of Justice, Promises...)

For arcanists, their average Df is almost the same as their average Wp and they don't really have too many good Wp buffs. (Only Marcus and I'm not sure how much that upgrade is used.)

It would seem that bringing Candy against arcanists might be better idea than bringing her against guild. Her paralyze won't work against frozen heart models, but there's also significantly less models that ignore her manipulative and there are other factors too such as Guild's damage relying more on critical strikes, arcanists relying more on damage etc.

[Nical]

Interesting topic. Especially since I find Candy one of the least usable Henchmen around the park. She is certainly not completely crap in my eyes but her Ca5 is really a problem when you go against Wp which is on average a bigger stat than Df and there is plenty of Upgrades or abilities that enhance Wp or makes attacking it very difficult. The not at all easy to pull off Paralyzing trick is nice but for roughly the same price (her base cost+upgrades+possible SS use etc.) you can have so much more with other models. Usually a Mature can kill more directly and easily, 2 Waldgeists can tank longer and cover bigger territory, 3 Terror Tots can achieve VPs easier and yield valuable Activation control etc.

Will keep an eye on this conversation so that I have a chance to be converted to a Candy fan.

 

Candy is Toolbox Henchman. She is jill of all trades, master of none. Her Ca is not high, but She can do Deal / Denial / Heal / Tank.

That's her appeal point. For Example, Lucius doesn't have Wp Debuff or Denial, but his synergy with Candy is very good.  

So If you want to use Candy, you must think what other models in your crew can't do.(except Pandora Crew) and how can Candy solve that.   

If Some other model can solve that or Candy can't solve that, you don't need to use Candy. 

 

In Pandora Crew, you can use enough Wp Debuff easily than other master's crew. So Candy's Ca is not problem in Pandora Crew.

Just Use Candy as little Pandora.  

 

P.S : Mature is fragile. But How about Teddy?  

[Patzer]

I agree with Csonti that the CA 5 isn't the best, however if it would be 6, I think that Candy would be a bit too good. Anyway, that out of the window now. CA 5 is ok! With Casting Expert it isn't that bad to simply Focus an attack and go for that severe damage. When Candy really shines is with Fears Given Form. She covers a lot of area and is a threat by simply standing in a place. She can be gruesome in Reconnoiter and Turf War. As for the Sweet/sour tricks, its always a nice option to have since it will by default change the way the opponent can activate. Then you throw in the additional activation control tricks of the Woes, its gets way better!

[Bodiless]

  

 

P.S : Mature is fragile. But How about Teddy?  

 

It's closer than it would seem at first. Teddy has a lower min damage (3 vs 4) but the Mature has armor. Teddy has Impossible to Wound and one more wound, which are huge advantages, but the Mature has 6 Wp vs 5. All in all you have to get a little unlucky to have Candy one-round either of them but it is more likely to happen to the Mature. Still, having Candy drop 6 damage on Teddy is certainly not out of the question. And she can do it from outside of his engagement range, making her immune to getting flurried if your opponent is careful in their placement.