Focus and Slug trigger against a Hard to kill model.

[wizuriel]

So a quick questions on how this works. I had cranky focus and use the slug trigger to attack a model with hard to kill.

 

Focus gives me a positive on my next actions attack and damage flip

 

slug is a trigger that after damage I can make a x/y/z damage flip afterwards (can't be cheated)

 

and hard to kill is if you have 2 or more wounds if you suffer damage you can't go below 1 wound.

 

 

 

So the way we worked this out.

 

Cranky got positive on the attack and damage flip

Hard to kill went off keeping my opponent at 1 wound.

Slug then went and since it was triggered from the attack it still gets positive to the damage flip

opponent dies a shotguny death.

 

Just wanting to know if this is right since my opponent thought that either slug shouldn't get the positive damage flip or that hard to kill should wait for both damage flips and then apply afterwards.  

[Dirial]

I think you played it completely right.

[valhallan42nd]

Be careful about using the term "triggered" with Hard to Kill, as Hard to Kill is an Ability, not a Trigger. It'll save confusion.

[The Godlyness]

1) Focus: The model gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn: "Focused +1: This model may remove this Condition when declaring an Action to gain a number of   to the Action's duel and damage flip equal to the value of the Focused Condition removed."

 

Slug trigger is not the actions duel nor the actions damage flip.

 

so no to it.

 

but it would definitely circumvent hard to kill.

[HowNot2Wargame]

Yep noextra positive but it does get round hard to kill. One more reason to love granny with a shot gun

[Dirial]

Slug trigger is not the actions duel nor the actions damage flip.

 

so no to it.

 

Triggers are part of their action, aren't they? It's at least debatable if Slug gets a   or not.

[wizuriel]

some triggers say you get to take a free action, but since slug doesn't imo it is part of the original action that has focus on it. 

[Malal]

it may be part of the original action but as The Godlyness pointed out, it's neither the actions duel nor the damage flip. No  on the dmg from the slug trigger I'm afraid

[zFiend]

Triggers are part of their action, aren't they? It's at least debatable if Slug gets a   or not.

 

Not if Godlyness says so.

[Dirial]

it may be part of the original action but as The Godlyness pointed out, it's neither the actions duel nor the damage flip. No  on the dmg from the slug trigger I'm afraid

 

Would you then argue that it's not modified by Accuracy either?

[Bengt]

Would you then argue that it's not modified by Accuracy either?

I would. Accuracy (p46) is rather specific in its wording. Hard/impossible to wound would work though, they are general in their wording.

[Dirial]

I'm not convinced. Okay, Accuracy, Focus and Hard Cover all have that wording that they modify the attack action's damage flip, and you are arguning that the triggers are not the actions. However, the definition of triggers specifically says:

 

"Triggers allow a model to change the results of an action. [...] If a trigger is part of a specific action it is listed below the action's description. These are called Action Triggers and are part of the action itself." (p.21, big rulebook).

 

So, if triggers just modify the action, and are part of the action, shouldn't they be modified by Accuracy, Focus and Hard Cover?

[Math Mathonwy]

Why isn't Slug the Action's damage flip? It's a damage flip directly caused by the Action. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[Dirial]

Why isn't Slug the Action's damage flip? It's a damage flip directly caused by the Action. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

 

I thought so, too, but obviously it's not as obvious as I thought. 

[zFiend]

Why isn't Slug the Action's damage flip? It's a damage flip directly caused by the Action. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

 

I thought so, too, but obviously it's not as obvious as I thought. 

 

And now we sit and wait for Myyrä to arrive and Godlyness to reappear.

[Dirial]

And now we sit and wait for Myyrä to arrive and Godlyness to reappear.

 

Doesn't this sum up a lot of the rules discussions recently? 

[zFiend]

Doesn't this sum up a lot of the rules discussions recently? 

 

To a point I don't even care to weigh in anymore

 

A rules question pops up, those two get in there and that's it, then it's off to a point it's impossible to follow.

[Myyrä]

I was summoned!

It seems to me like Slug does not benefit from focus or suffer from cover.

If damage flips generated from triggers would benefit from focus, then that would pretty much mean that additional attacks generated by triggers would too. I think no one would like to play against Santiago after that.

[Dirial]

But the FAQ on charges made clear that action-generated actions don't profit from focus. Also, they don't produce damage flips but actions. I see a difference there.

 

(Another example beside Slug would be Ricochet by Samael.)

[Myyrä]

In that case my only remaining argument is that Focus and Cover talk about singular damage flip. It's quite clear that triggers like Slug were not thought of when the rules were written. FAQ could turn up either way really.

[zFiend]

I was summoned!

 

Hahahahahaa, saved my day.

[The Godlyness]

Well i guess its mandatory to pop in now also.

 

(1) Sawed-Off Shotgun (Sh 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: z6): Target suffers 2/3 /4     damage.
  Slug: This Attack places no blast Markers. After damaging, perform a 2/3/4 damage flip against the target which may not be cheated. This model may not take the Sawed-Off Shotgun Action again this Turn.

 

".....   to the Action's duel and damage flip equal to the value of the Focused Condition removed."

 

The Actions Damage flip is in This action is 2/3 /4 :blast

 

the Triggers Damage flip is 2/3/4

 

Yes the Trigger is Part of an Action, but a Trigger is not the Actions damage flip. It might generate a damage flip (hamelins pipes, slug,) but these damage flips are not Effected by the focus. If they were effected by focus then they would also be effected by the accuracy modifier which comes from the duel, and also Hard cover.

 

"The most common modifier placed on a damage flip is the Accuracy Modifier. Whenever a damage flip is the result of an Opposed Duel, the damage flip will gain a
Fate Modifier, which is determined by the difference between the two final duel totals." -page 46 Big book

 

Terrain with the hard cover trait will grant hard cover which imposes a   to the Attack and damage flip of any ( ) Attack Actions. - page 41

 

Again i cant convince you. At this point i am pretty sure Both of you have your hands over your ears Screaming LALALALALA. You will play it whatever way you want. And that is fine.

[Dirial]

Again i cant convince you. At this point i am pretty sure Both of you have your hands over your ears Screaming LALALALALA. You will play it whatever way you want. And that is fine.

 

Seriously, I'm not. But your citations don't convince me. Your conclusions could be right, of course, but I don't see it as conclusive. Especially this:

 

"The most common modifier placed on a damage flip is the Accuracy Modifier. Whenever a damage flip is the result of an Opposed Duel, the damage flip will gain a

Fate Modifier, which is determined by the difference between the two final duel totals." -page 46 Big book

 

Yeah, that's true. But as triggers are part of the action, their damage flip can be argued to be a result of an opposed duel. That's how I read it. In fact, triggers modify the action's outcome. Likewise, the Dumb Luck trigger replaces the damage flip with another, and that one gets modified. I think, no one will argue that the trigger's damage flip is not the action's damage flip in such a case.

 

 

If they were effected by focus then they would also be effected by the accuracy modifier which comes from the duel, and also Hard cover.

 

Because of this line of thought, I argue that they are modified by Focus, Hard Cover and Accuracy.

[The Godlyness]

...a damage flip generated by a trigger was not generated by a opposed duel. If you can't understand that then we are most certainly done here.

[Dirial]

Well, we might be then. It may not be generated by it, but it's the result of one.

[Math Mathonwy]

At this point i am pretty sure Both of you have your hands over your ears Screaming LALALALALA.

What's with the attitude? Dude, seriously.