Confused about arsenal decks

[AverageBoss]

Not sure it is cheaper for them to print Arsenal decks at all. They require their own packaging and are really aimed at a specific audience (namely those that are bridging from a last edition). If the cards were only available in the Arsenal decks then I could see it saving some money but given that they are still included in the model boxes (aside from the generic upgrades) it means "Useless Duplication".

 

I agree that having the Generic upgrades in their own box probably wouldn't be worth it unless they added a few more options.

 

Disagree though that 1st edition players would need to purchase a separate Upgrade deck as the Arsenal decks that they need to bridge editions already have them. A generic upgrade deck is really aimed at those that started with M2e and dont really have any other method of getting them outside of purchase Arseanal decks with duplicate cards.

I don't think I was very clear. I was responding to people stating that generic upgrades should be in their own deck and that they should do something else with the other cards. My point was that the current Arsenal decks are probably the best choice available, and the the alternatives are bad ideas.

[Omenbringer]

You think including the Generic upgrades in the Strat/ Scheme deck would be a bad idea?

[AverageBoss]

You think including the Generic upgrades in the Strat/ Scheme deck would be a bad idea?

I missed your suggestion, I was responding to the suggestion that they make a specific generic upgrades deck. Perhaps they could include them with what I am asuming will be the Avatar deck, as that will only be 40 cards base.

[Omenbringer]

I was thinking the Avatar deck would be a good product for inclusion as well but given that it might be a bit the Strat/ Scheme deck seemed like the better option (though it would now require a repackaging). With a few more generic upgrades it could stand on its own as a product (it might even be able to without it as there are some errated cards and some wave 1 model upgrades that could go in now).

[Scorpion0x17]

I question the assertion that the arsenal decks are of most value to those that moved from 1st edition to M2E and of little value to new players.

[Math Mathonwy]

I question the assertion that the arsenal decks are of most value to those that moved from 1st edition to M2E and of little value to new players.

New players get the cards when they buy the minis. The books also have all the cards so they can use them to familiarize themselves with various crews. So why do they need Arsenal decks (other than the generic upgrades)?

[Gorbad]

You are making the assumption that they have more than the rules manual. I imagine quite a lot of people only have that, and it doesn't contain any models so the arsenal decks are a good way of getting those rules, whatever to plan future purchases or just to reference other factions when playing against them (as several people have stated they have used them for so far).

 

One question about putting them in the Scheme/Strat deck, would all the generic upgrades for all factions fit in that, or would we need a deck for each faction? Because I can understand if Wyrd isn't terribly interested in making yet another faction specific deck and effectively turning on SKU into 7 different ones. But I don't know what is in the Scheme/Strat deck box and can't, off the top of my head, estimate how many generic upgrades there are (40-50 between the factions?).

 

Alternatively you make a deck with just generic upgrades, but then you either end up with way more cards that are probably useless to you than the Arsenal model, or you will need to arrange it between mates and trade (and hope everyone plays something different).

 

But the real interesting thing will be to see what they do going forward if/when they do more generic upgrades. How are they going to be distributed?

[Scorpion0x17]

New players get the cards when they buy the minis. The books also have all the cards so they can use them to familiarize themselves with various crews. So why do they need Arsenal decks (other than the generic upgrades)?

It has already been stated several times in this very thread:

1. Not everyone buys the big rule book.

2. Having the cards allows one to more easily plan future purchases.

3. Having the cards allows one to proxy models before purchase.

4. Having the cards makes it easier to find combos and synergies between different models.

And I'm sure other new players have other reasons.

[Adran]

It has already been stated several times in this very thread:

1. Not everyone buys the big rule book.

2. Having the cards allows one to more easily plan future purchases.

3. Having the cards allows one to proxy models before purchase.

4. Having the cards makes it easier to find combos and synergies between different models.

And I'm sure other new players have other reasons.

 

Whist I agree its a good idea for a new player to get the Arsenal decks, they are still much more useful for an old player because of

Reason 5 The player is allowed to play with the figures they already own. And have owned for years.

[Omenbringer]

I would add that point 2 and 4 are tenuous justifications. The Big books offer the same thing with the added benefit of showing the entire range (your possible crews and your opponents) at a cheaper expenditure (both big books = $85.00 versus 14 fate decks at $112.00 plus requiring the mini Rulebook at $15.00 more).

 

Point 3 is arguable as well though not everyone likes photocopies (though not a preference of mine it has become necessary for some of my more populous crews that the arsenal decks dont provide enough copies for).

 

I agree with both Scorpion0x17 and Adran, the Arsenal decks are of some use to newer players however they are of most value and use to the players bridging editions.

[Scorpion0x17]

My point is that I think my points 1 to 4 are, combined, about as relevant as Adran's point 5.

 

In other words, there are two groups of customers for the Arsenal Decks:

 

A. Players coming from 1st Edition who want updated cards for their existing models.

B. Players new to the game that want cards for a variety of reasons.

 

Elevating one group above the other, or, worse, ignoring one, has the potential to be problematic.

[Adran]

Whilst I wouldn't equate reasons 1-4 with 5 personally, you're missing my intention.

 

Each of your 4 points applies to new and old players equally. So following your view that your points are equal to point 5, I'm still getting twice as much use out of them that you are ( I would argue that I actually get much more use out of them due to needing them for 95% of my collection to be useable in a game) .

 

If there wasn't old players with old models and no valid cards there probably wouldn't be arsenal decks. They were created to allow old M1e collections to be used in M2e.

We played for years without arsenal decks, only having cards for models we owned, and the books to see models we didn't own. Points 2, 3, and 4 happened using the books, and whilst the cards are in my mind easier, their absence doesn't prevent them.

 

So I don't view the groups as equal, as group A have also have all the motivations of group B . I also don't see what they would do that would be good for 1 group and bad for another. Although you are now part of both groups as you own old metal models which didn't have the right cards. 

 

I have no idea of what he plans for the future is, but they were created as a way to allow older players get cards for their old crews. But currently if you buy a plastic crew you are going to have to buy at least 2 arsenal decks to get the upgrades you might want to use, and that is starting to get excesive. Will the system change? I don't kknow. I'm not sure if there is a better way to handle it. Its going to be interestign next year to see what they do about the new models from book 3. Will 1 deck do all the models for all the factions? I doubt they would want to sell 7 different packs of 7 cards (going on  rough amount of models for each faction in Storm of Shadows). If there are new generic upgrades how far are you expecting a Mei feng player to go, they would then need 6 decks just for all her possible upgrades.

[Math Mathonwy]

It has already been stated several times in this very thread:

Your reason number has not really been said other than in one post that was between mine and yours. And your reasons 2 and 4 follow from your reason 1. Reason 3 is valid, I suppose, especially if you're trying out a whole crew as opposed to proxying a single model.

[zFiend]

If you are a new player who is buying plastic, and you want the generic upgrades, buying two Arsenal packs (both Waves) per faction is a crazy expense for a dozen or so useful cards (and well over a hundred useless ones).

 

This I have to agree with. 

[deValmont]

Another reason (that might just be me) when I've got all my cards down on the table with the wounds marked on them in whiteboard pen, they can get smudged if I keep picking them up. So I keep a hand of cards which has one of each of the models on the board. So I might have 3 Canine remains cards in front of me with wounds for each model marked on them, but have a fourth one in my reference hand which I use for checking rules. This is also useful for people who put dice down on the cards to mark wounds.

[Ausplosions]

"I don't want to spend $16 on a luxury item" is essentially what this boils down to. The term "Crazy Expense" in relation to this discussion is what i find most hilarious.

[Math Mathonwy]

"I don't want to spend $16 on a luxury item" is essentially what this boils down to. The term "Crazy Expense" in relation to this discussion is what i find most hilarious.

"Crazy expense" is usually used in relation to something else. A $16 donut is crazy expensive as is 16 dollars for ten useful cards and a whole host of useless ones.

[dgraz]

It's all relative. If you have very little extra money and that's why you picked Malifaux in the first place, then yeah I can see how it would be expensive. If you've come from other wargames that can easily be two or three times more expensive then Malifaux, then getting those cards is a pittance.

[Scorpion0x17]

Whilst I wouldn't equate reasons 1-4 with 5 personally, you're missing my intention.

 

Each of your 4 points applies to new and old players equally. So following your view that your points are equal to point 5, I'm still getting twice as much use out of them that you are ( I would argue that I actually get much more use out of them due to needing them for 95% of my collection to be useable in a game).

Only if points 1-4 are of equal importance to older and newer players. Which I, personally, feel isn't the case.

Older players have a wealth of knowledge about the game and the characteristics of the models they own that informs their understanding of M2E.

Newer players do not.

For example, when I play a game against the players at my club that have been playing since the first edition there is marked difference in the way we use the cards. They hardly ever check abilities and stats, but I do so almost on every activation.

That would be far more difficult to do without the cards.

The same extends beyond the playing of an individual game - if I'm thinking about a changes to my crew, I will get all the crews cards out, put them side-by-side along with the cards of the models I'm considering.

And that's despite having the big rule book.

Discussions with more experienced players, however, often go along the lines of "have you looked at X, it's got some nice synergies with Y and Z", and I'm thinking "well, I'll have to take your word for that, because yes I looked at it, but I'm not sure where those synergies are, let me go get my cards..."

 

If there wasn't old players with old models and no valid cards there probably wouldn't be arsenal decks. They were created to allow old M1e collections to be used in M2e.

We played for years without arsenal decks, only having cards for models we owned, and the books to see models we didn't own. Points 2, 3, and 4 happened using the books, and whilst the cards are in my mind easier, their absence doesn't prevent them.

That, frankly, is irrelevant. They exist now and when looking at their utility we shouldn't just consider their original intended use, we should consider how they are used by everyone.

 

So I don't view the groups as equal, as group A have also have all the motivations of group B . I also don't see what they would do that would be good for 1 group and bad for another. Although you are now part of both groups as you own old metal models which didn't have the right cards.

That I own metal models is again irrelevant. If I only owned plastic models that all had M2E cards I would still find them just as useful. There main utility for new players is not for those models that they own, but for those that they don't own.

If I had not been able to proxy models I probably wouldn't have bought half the models I have. Heck I may not have even started playing, and instead stuck to painting the figures, which was the primary reason I bought the Kaeris Starter in the first place.

The Arsenal Decks makes it much much easier for new players to get in to the game, and, unless you want Malifaux to be a closed game that only a clique of experienced players play, then that seems like a pretty damn important factor to consider.

[Scorpion0x17]

It's all relative. If you have very little extra money and that's why you picked Malifaux in the first place, then yeah I can see how it would be expensive. If you've come from other wargames that can easily be two or three times more expensive then Malifaux, then getting those cards is a pittance.

Given the amount of money I've saved by not needing to buy figures to try them out in a game, I consider them a bargain.

[Adran]

The reason I don't spend hours in a game pouring over my cards for abilities is that I have a year and half using these models already. My knowledge of the old edition actuially made learning what the new edition does much harder as I had to unlearn everything I already knew.

 

And to be honest, if you only had the cards for the models you owned, you probably would know those models better, as you would have spent more time lookign at what you owned. I know from my point of view whilst I looked at what all the models do, I used to spend much more time with the cards, so only the models I owned ratehr than everything.

 

As I have said I think its good for everyone to have access to all availible models. Personally I don't play with Proxy models if I can help it, so I am used to looking at the rules for models and deciding if they would work in my crew, then chatting with friends before buying.

Most of what you do with your cards I used to do with my rulebook. It is easier with the cards, but not signifigantly so.

 

I have been where you are. The reason I can say what works well is play time in M2E, and reading other peoples opinions. It has nothing to do with owning 1st edition models. I use my arsenal decks to do everythign you do. I look through the cards, and see what works together. I use them against opponents when they are using crews I don't know, to let me see what they are doing. I've used them once or twice to proxy a model and play with it. I've bought every Arsenal deck, even the gremlin ones, when I only owned 3 gremlin models, to do exactly what you do, but even so, by far the best use I have from them is playing my models that otherwise wouldn't have cards.  

 

Honestly, the reason I can tell you to look at the synergy between Kaeris using Grab and Drop, and Malifaux raptors is not some empowered knowledge from the old days, its from me looking at the cards of them and seeing the ability to set fire to the birds, and then let them fly awy and drop scheme markers. The Fact I did that over a year ago, doesn't make the method I came up with it any different to you spotting it now.

 

In fact, a couple of months a go I started to sort out my arsenal decks, and remove all the cards I don't have models for, as they just are excess I don't need for crew selection. Whilst I'm glad I have the cards, after a year I've pretty much got a good grasp of what they do, at least well enough I don't need to look at them very often.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the new relases from Gen Con 2015 only had cards in the model blister. And if that was the case I'm probably not going to be too upset. (although if they did do another arsenal deck I would still buy it).

 

 
That I own metal models is again irrelevant. If I only owned plastic models that all had M2E cards I would still find them just as useful. There main utility for new players is not for those models that they own, but for those that they don't own.
 

You really think that if they didn't have arsenal decks at all, you would get as much use out of your Kaeris crew as you do?

In fact you say yourself that without the rules for them in the Arsenal decks, you would just have used them as a painting project.

So surely you are getting more use from them because you have a crew that you now play.

 

 Frankly, we are both happy with the product. Thats what counts. I have no idea what Wyrd hope to do in the long term with cards, especicially for new players. And that is what they need to look at if they don't want to make the game a cliche. Introducing new players at the end of 1st edition did have a huge list of questions to them about what they wanted to play, and so which book you need to buy to get the rules.

Upgrades make this worse for this edition. If someone told me they had an old McCabe set and wanted to play him as guild, what arsenal decks should they buy, then the correct answer is both Guild decks and the ten thunders wave 2 decks (because McCabe does want to know what all the upgrades are). Thatt an extra $24 to make their crew legal, and all without buyin another figure. Thats not ideal to a starting player. I'd recomend that if you have the money you get teh 3 decks, and use them as you do, looking for synergies and learn what all the models he might want do, but if you were on a tight budget, it might look quite poor value for money.

 

If they changed the Arsenal decks to be 1 for models and 1 for upgardes it would probably be more use for players, but I don't know on the practicalities

[Scorpion0x17]

The point I am trying to make, and you seem to be failing to understand, is precisely that we put different values on the decks because we are coming at the game from entirely different places.

 

You may find the most value to be being able to use models you don't have the cards for, but that doesn't mean that everyone else should agree with you.

I find reason A the most valuable, you find reason B the most valuable.

But, neither reason is more important than the other.

 

They are both of equal importance.

[Omenbringer]

Older players have a wealth of knowledge about the game and the characteristics of the models they own that informs their understanding of M2E.

Newer players do not.

Slightly off topic but the two editions are very different in both play and abilities. I would argue that bridging the editions is a more difficult transition than learning the system cold (with out preconceptions). Even models that retained a lot of their 1st edition abilities play very different in this edition.

[AverageBoss]

I only owned Kirai and Jacob Lynch during 1st edition. When 2nd edition came out, I purchased all of the wave 1 decks. Yes I got extra value out of the TT and NB decks due to having Jacob, but I still found the other five decks and indeed all the extra TT and NB cards useful. Myself and many other see value in being able to use cards for which we do not own the models. They allowed me to look at many models and even easily test them out before I dedicated myself to a purchase. It was not long before I ordered Misaki and Mei Feng, mostly due to having their cards in the decks to test. I guess even the value of being able to test a ton of models you do not own will vary from person to person. But for me personally, the only way I could see the decks being of little value is if you either plan to get every single model in a faction without knowing a thing about them, or if you decide to limit yourself to a small specific pool of models in a given faction.

[Omenbringer]

Not sure how the Arsenal Decks are being considered the only or even the best method of getting to know the available model pool. The big books contain all the models and rules and even together are much cheaper than the 14 Arsenal Decks and Mini Rule book, leaving more room for model purchases.