Mc Mourning - Organ Donor

[Daysleeper]

Hi Malifaulks,

 

I understand that when Mc Mourning deals 3 dmg to an model with only 1 wound remaining he only heals 1 wound himself, but there is another case in wich i'm not sure if i interpret the rules correctly.

 

Let's say the doc punches a nice meatbag with lots of wounds. He hits him for 3 dmg, heals 3 wounds. After that he hits him again for 3 dmg ... how much does he heal then?

 

Organ Donor says:

After this model inflicts damage with an MI Action, it heals an amount of damage equal to the damage inflicted. This model may not heal more than 5 damage per Activation in this way.

 

... equal ... not equal or less ... so does he realy heal no damage (wounds being the better word here i think)? Is this realy what was intended by design, did they miss it or am i just wrong?

 

Thanks for your help 

[Bengt]

The Dumb luck FAQ is based on the General Timing (p 32 & 46)

 

Defender's Trigger

Attacker's Trigger (Dumb Luck happens here)

Attacker's Abilities (Organ Donor happens here)

Defender's Abilities (Armour and stuff happens here)

 

As there is nothing in between Dumb Luck and Organ Donor they should calculate in the same way.

[The Godlyness]

Bengt you almost made me concede my Stance. But then i re read this

 

Organ Donor says:

After this model inflicts damage with an MI Action, it heals an amount of damage equal to the damage inflicted. This model may not heal more than 5 damage per Activation in this way.

 

 

After this model inflicts damage. Damage has to be done first.  So organ Donor would actually Happen at the very end of step 5 after reduction and prevention. or it happens same time as an After Damaging Trigger. which is after step 5. either way prevention and reduction happens first.

 

so during step 5 we have the damage flip. then any modifiers ie Crit strike ,armor, Bite of winter etc

rulebook

if damage is modified by a Static value (such as the Armor Ability, or a Trigger), the final damage after the damage flip is modified.
 

 then we have

 

Damage Prevention
Masters & Henchman have an additional defense against damage. After determining how much damage the Master or Henchman model would take, but before applying the damage, the model may spend a Soulstone to make a Damage Prevention Flip. The player flips a single card which cannot be cheated and reduces the damage according to the table below

 

this is all in step 5 after all this then McMourning heals what ever.

 

Dumb luck triggers as soon as the damage is flipped and resolved then, so no armor or modifiers are taken into account that is why it takes the full back lash.

[Math Mathonwy]

Dumb luck triggers as soon as the damage is flipped and resolved then, so no armor or modifiers are taken into account that is why it takes the full back lash.

And Restabilize, then? The trigger that works the same as McM's ability ("After damaging...") and has been ruled to work the same as Dumb Luck?

[The Godlyness]

Ones a trigger Ones an ability?

By all rights since restablize is an after damaging and happens after step 5 it should not be any where near or in the same category as dumb luck which is a while damaging. But I roll with the punches. Quirk of the rules I guess.

[Daysleeper]

Isn't there some sort of last authority who could just rule this? Rules Designer or anyone like that? The one with the biggest hat?

[Tuttleboy]

Isn't there some sort of last authority who could just rule this? Rules Designer or anyone like that? The one with the biggest hat?

Not anymore.

[Fetid Strumpet]

They don't do that anymore. If its not in the FAQ its not official, even if Justin comes in here and says it works a certain way.

Players will just have to work out among themselves how this works until and if this becomes part of the FAQ which is not a certainty that it will.

I know how ill be ruling it as I mentioned earlier in the thread, and that will continue in perpetuity unless it is eventually addressed in the FAQ.

As a side note the reason they do it this way now is so that players don't have to constantly read rules threads and dig through untold numbers of d rules arguments to know how to play the game. The FAQ is the ONLY definitive developers answer to all rules inquiries. Anything else is a suggestion, and the players and TOs will more often have to work out personal interpretations of the rules that work for them and their groups.

[Math Mathonwy]

Ones a trigger Ones an ability?

By all rights since restablize is an after damaging and happens after step 5 it should not be any where near or in the same category as dumb luck which is a while damaging. But I roll with the punches. Quirk of the rules I guess.

Yeah - I just find it funny when the people who think that Organ Donor works based on how many wounds/defensive abilities the defender has always pull out Dumb Luck and all these justifications based on how Dumb Luck is different when the very same FAQ entry references Restabilize which is essentially identical. After this is pointed out, the response is essentially "it's an ability so therefore it just has to randomly work different" or "*shrugs*" or just ignore the whole point.

[The Godlyness]

I also find it funny that people who believe that triggers and abilities with similar wording have the same timing. Even though the rule book says different. More funny is a faq ruling of certain triggers and saying yep abilities are covered also.

Which would you personally resolve first. An after damaging trigger or black blood.

[Myyrä]

I would want to think that same wording means the same thing, regardless of whether it's written in an ability or in a trigger.

[deValmont]

 

After this model inflicts damage. Damage has to be done first. 

  

  I'm in agreement here, the phrase 'damage inflicted' seems to be the factor that is unique to this situation (as opposed to Dumb Luck and Restabilize, which both use the word 'suffers'.

 

  I'm not 100% sure on the minutiae of the word 'suffers' in this context but the difference in wording is enough to persuade me that the situations are different. I would surmise that the 'suffer' wording relates to the damage arriving upon the model, and the 'inflicted' is the damage caused after It's been reduced by Armor, Incorporeal (Which also uses 'suffers' in reference to damage) have been applied. It's been shown time and time again that the way that things are worded in the rules is very carefully done.

[Math Mathonwy]

I'm in agreement here, the phrase 'damage inflicted' seems to be the factor that is unique to this situation (as opposed to Dumb Luck and Restabilize, which both use the word 'suffers'.

 

  I'm not 100% sure on the minutiae of the word 'suffers' in this context but the difference in wording is enough to persuade me that the situations are different. I would surmise that the 'suffer' wording relates to the damage arriving upon the model, and the 'inflicted' is the damage caused after It's been reduced by Armor, Incorporeal (Which also uses 'suffers' in reference to damage) have been applied. It's been shown time and time again that the way that things are worded in the rules is very carefully done.

You should probably read this: http://justindrawingdead.com/?p=286

[deValmont]

You should probably read this: http://justindrawingdead.com/?p=286

 

  Oddly enough, I have read that, and had the earlier bit regarding Lilith and LoS in mind when I wrote that. I did however completely forget about the 'suffers' bit later on though, which does kibosh my argument a bit.

 

  However, this is the internet and as Stewart Lee says "you can prove anything with 'facts'", so I still think I'm right.