Relentless vs Killing Governor's Proxy

[Tiny]

If a model with relentless kills the governor's proxy does it automatically die because it can't take the WP test and therefore doesnt succeed. Or does it not have to take the test and therefore live.

 

the 2 rules in question are:

- Relentless: This model is immune to WP duels during its activation.

 

and

 

- Governor's Influence: A model that kills this model with an attack action must succeed on a WP 13 duel or be killed.

 

Noodle scratcher

[The Godlyness]

The immunity rule states that if a model is immune it would never test.

Or verbatim. The model never performs a duel to which it is immune.

 

So it cant perform the duel their for it cant fail nor succeed.

 

so by RAW the model that kills him and is immune dies.

 

Governors influence does not care that did not take the duel all it knows is that you did not succeed in it.

[Tiny]

So then it never succeeds and is therefore killed?

[The Godlyness]

correct. just like if you pass a horror duel you become immune to it.

 

so Lucius walks and  his minion passes the horror test. Lucius walks again targets the same model, since he never takes the duel he never succeeds in it therefor does not do a 1 action.

[entropolous]

If you are immune to a rule, you cannot be affected by the rule (first line of the Immunity call out box).  If you are immune to WP duels, you are also immune to the effects of the duel.

 

Manipulative and Horror have the exact same "must succeed on a WP X duel or..."  rules text.  If you use your interpretation of the rules Relentless is the worst ability in the game.

[Ausplosions]

Yeah, immune to the entire thing. Otherwise it's the most rubbish ability in existence.

It would mean relentless can't ever attack manipulative models, etc.

[The Godlyness]

What do you define rules as?

Is an ability a rule?

I believe a rule is something akin to falling damage. If you fall farther then 2" you take damage. Then we have flight which says you are immune to falling damage. So that first line saying " A model immune to a game rule can not be affected by thst rule" Specifically means that.

A horror duel is a specific rule that is defined in the rule book. Terrifying (x) is an ability that causes a horror duel but it is itself an ability. So a relentless model is not immune to the terrifying ability But it is quite immune to horror duel cause by it since horror duels are defined as wp duels. Which relentless models are immune to so they ignore the horror rule.

Saying manipulative is a game rule it is not. It is clearly defined as an Talent/ability.

So yes raw relentless should do nothing vs manipulative. Is that intended? I would think not. But that is not how it is worded.

To further illustrate my point : "ABILITIES: Models have special Abilities that change how they interact with the rules,....."

But hey I could be wrong. I think relentless should ignore governors influence and horror and manipulative. But it does not atm.

[entropolous]

Yeah, immune to the entire thing. Otherwise it's the most rubbish ability in existence.

It would mean relentless can't ever attack manipulative models, etc.

Incidentally, immunity to horror duels would also mean auto paralyze when dealing with a terrifying model.

Terrifying (All) 11: Enemy models must pass a TN 11 Horror Duel if they end a Walk Action within this model’s engagement range or target this model with an Action.

[Ausplosions]

Buy you are going to the other extreme, and rather than ignoring the duel, you are saying they are failing the duel, because they ignore it?

So a Relentless model can NEVER attack a manipulative or terrifying model? Really? There is no way that's how it works.

What do you believe the point of the ability is if not for that?

In what other circumstances does ignoring Wp duels in your own activation happen?

[zFiend]

Yeah, immune to the entire thing. Otherwise it's the most rubbish ability in existence.

It would mean relentless can't ever attack manipulative models, etc.

Absolutely.

[Seregon]

To start with, Relentless only grants immunity to Horror Duels. Ruthless is the one which grants immunity to all Wp duels.

 

Gamewise, if you are immune to something it is the same thing as if you automatically pass it without needing to flip a card for it.

 

For Ruthless, any and all Wp duel that you are forced to take during your activation is thus passed. The difference between being immune to the duel itself and the effect of the duel is similar to the one between Ruthless and Freikorps Armor.

 

Freikorps Armor grants you immunity to damage caused by and . You'd still have to take any applicable Wp/Df duels, but if the consequence of failing is damage then they will not suffer it.

Ruthless is immunity to Wp duels, which means that they never have to take the test in the first place and also never have to suffer from failing it since they count as automatically passing it.

 

To finish off, Ruthless will give you absolute immunity to any and all duel that has you make a Wp duel (during their own activation). Relentless on the other hand will only work on Horror Duels, so Relentless can still die to the Govenor's Proxy while Ruthless cannot.

One exception to this would be casting Obey on the Ruthless model, cause them to kill the Govenor's Proxy and then fail the Wp duel. That would kill them (since it's not their own activation).

[Therril_83]

The Immunity-box on page 36 of the small rulebook is maybe not 100% clear on this.

It states:

A model immune to a game rule cannot be affected by that rule. The

model never performs a duel to which it is immune. A model immune

to Horror Duels, for instance, simply does not perform the duel.

 

 

 

But I do think that this means that if you are targeted by a rule that makes you do something that you are immune to doing, then that rule doesn't work. It doesn't automatically consider the duel successful or failed.
So, in this case, you are forced to take a Wp-test or die, but as you are immune to anything requiring you to take a Wp-test, that rule doesn't work. 
Same in the example of Lucius and the minions, if he targets a minion a second time it will be immune to taking the horror duel, and so it has no effect. It doesn't cause him to be paralyzed, but it also doesn't allow him to do an action.

 

I also attribute this issue a bit to the wording of abilities. Many of them say "Succeed in a Tn 12 Wp-duel or <stuff happens>" which could ofcourse by the litteral sense mean that if you for some reason do not take Wp-duels, then stuff will happen. You could change the wording to "If a model fails a Tn 12 Wp-duel, <stuff happens>", but then you need two different wordings for what is basically the same thing when you look just passed the letters.
Saying that a model immune to the duel therefore is immune to the entire rule, I think is pretty simple to understand and shouldn't be overanalyazed..

[Jimbobovalsocks]

I think when Wyrd were writing these rules, they assumed that people reading the rules would be able to apply some degree of reasoning to their interpretation of the rules. It's pretty clear that the idea behind relentless is that the model iwth that ability isn't affected by any Wp duels. As with any exchange of information, the person providing the information assumes that their audience will interpret that information in a reasonable manner. It's arguably impossible to completely remove interpretation from an exchange of information. Anyway, I suppose if you enjoy theorising about the potential different interpretations of a written rule then that's fine, but I'd not personally put up with a player who really wanted to play sily buggers with the rules wording during a game.

[lusciousmccabe]

@ Godlyness - do you not think that Abilities and Talents are subsets of Rules?

[jonahmaul]

If you have to pass a Wp duel or die but are immune to taking Wp duels then you can't possibly fail so you can't possibly die.  The purpose of Relentless/Ruthless is to make models better at attacking other models with traits such as Terrifying or Manipulative.  If somebody tried to claim otherwise in a game with me I'd pack up and not be playing that person again.

[zFiend]

If somebody tried to claim otherwise in a game with me I'd pack up and not be playing that person again.

Spot on.

[Therril_83]

If you have to pass a Wp duel or die but are immune to taking Wp duels then you can't possibly fail so you can't possibly die.  

First up, I'm totally agreeing with you.

But just to say that I do understand where the other interpretation is coming from, it is just this. The rule only says that you need to pass the duel or die. It doesn't mention anything about failing. So if you don't take the duel, you don't succeed. You also don't fail, but that doesn't matter since failing isn't mentioned by the rule, only "not-succeeding" is mentioned.

I think it's a silly interpretation, but I can still see where the argument stems from.