Ignores all conditions

[BurkerKiing]

Hi there. 

 

Played a game last night vs Gremlins, and there is a character that has 'ignores all conditions'. Pretty straight forward with regards to poison, etc (I was playing McMourning); but a point came up about Horror duels (he wanted to charge my Rogue Necromancy). So, is the Horror duel still required?

 

We played it that the player did need to take the Horror duel. If he passed fine; if he failed he wouldn't be Paralyzed (as he is immune to all conditions), but he wouldn't be able to charge the Rogue Necromancy, and had used 2AP.

 

Were we correct?

 

Thanks.

[Shadowfane]

He still takes the Horror Duel, but as he is immune to Paralysed, the result makes no difference, ie he can still complete the charge and attack - the horror duel is still taken because some abilities key off failed horror duels/WP tests (such as Seamus and his healing).

 

Just as a practical matter, how is what you did in the end any different from the Gremlin model being paralysed anyway?

[Yosh]

I think you should take the horror tests, no matter the results. Lenny does not gain the Paralyzed condition if he fails the duel, but he would suffer any other consequences of failing a Wp duel (for example: Misery from Pandora).

[Dirial]

Shadowfane and Yosh are right. Flipping the duel is still important for certain abilities, and in general for the wasted cards.

[BurkerKiing]

Thanks, for your replies. I can see your point Shadowfane. However, Paralysed is not quite the same as wasting your AP. if you are paralysed you have a Melee range of 0 and so you have no melee range to stop people leaving your previous melee range. Also, don't know if Lenny has any, but he would still be able to have taken a 0 AP after the failed duel.

 

OK - so is the consensus that the Horror duel is taken but Lenny can still charge whether he passed or failed? 

 

Which does bring another question to mind. The Rogue Necromancy gets to make a free Ml action if anyone fails a WP duel within 6". So letc say Lenny was within 6" and failed the duel. He still charges, when does the RN get it's free attack?

 

Thanks for your time and input.

[Uktena]

Rogue Necromancy takes a free attack if Lenny fails a Horror Duel close enough, yes.  However Lenny will not gain Paralyzed.  Nothing about failing a Horror Duel prevents a charge normally - that comes from the Paralyzed condition's "immediately end it's activation" clause.  So yes, Lenny can charge.  Pretty sure Rogue Necromancy attacks after that, so Lenny may or may not be within bite range after that.  Note; if RN engaged Lenny then he couldn't declare a charge at all.

[AnythingBut]

Which does bring another question to mind. The Rogue Necromancy gets to make a free Ml action if anyone fails a WP duel within 6". So letc say Lenny was within 6" and failed the duel. He still charges, when does the RN get it's free attack?

Thanks for your time and input.

Yeah this ability and ones like it (seamus heal and pandora's misery) are exactly why you still take the horror duel even if you are immune to the condition paralysis.

As a note there are models who are immune to horror duels all together (rasputinas frozen heart models for example) who do not take the duel at all and so cannot trigger such abilities on the necromancy, seamus, pandora etc

[Ausplosions]

He takes it when the duel is failed. So if Lenny is out of range, them he can't hit him.

Note that the Necromancy does NOT have to hit the model that failed.

[Dirial]

Thanks, for your replies. I can see your point Shadowfane. However, Paralysed is not quite the same as wasting your AP. if you are paralysed you have a Melee range of 0 and so you have no melee range to stop people leaving your previous melee range. Also, don't know if Lenny has any, but he would still be able to have taken a 0 AP after the failed duel.

 

If I remember correctly, he cannot. If a model is paralyzed, it doesn't generate AP and has no engagement range (when paralyzed out of its activation). If you don't generate AP you aren't allowed to take (0) actions, I think. When a model is paralyzed during its activation, like in this case, the activation simply ends.

 

Ausplosions is right about the RN: he immediately makes his attack, before Lenny moves. He can attack another model, though.

[Ausplosions]

If I remember correctly, he cannot. If a model is paralyzed, it doesn't generate AP and has no engagement range (when paralyzed out of its activation). If you don't generate AP you aren't allowed to take (0) actions, I think. When a model is paralyzed during its activation, like in this case, the activation simply ends.

 

 

This is correct. You end your activation as soon as your gain paralyzed during your activation.

[Fireuser]

The previously mentioned timing of the Smell Fear attack is a little off.  Smell Fear grants the attack after completing the current action.  If Lenny declares the charge, and fails the horror duel, he still needs to complete the charge action.  Then the RN will get to make its attack. If Lenny is in range at that time, the RN could attack him.

[Pierowmaniac]

I think fireuser is right on this one.

Wording on 'Smell fear' would suggest the charge action is completed before the rogue necromancy gets the attack.

So as long as the Rogue necromancy is still standing after Lenny's attacks, he will get to hit the dirty green scum bag

[Ausplosions]

I think fireuser is right on this one.

Wording on 'Smell fear' would suggest the charge action is completed before the rogue necromancy gets the attack.

So as long as the Rogue necromancy is still standing after Lenny's attacks, he will get to hit the dirty green scum bag

Surely then the charge action and the two attacks it creates are separate.

So he fails.

He charges.

RN strikes.

Then Lenny does his two attacks.

[Pierowmaniac]

Surely then the charge action and the two attacks it creates are separate.

So he fails.

He charges.

RN strikes.

Then Lenny does his two attacks.

Hadn't thought of it like that.

I need to refresh myself on the Charge rules and timing stuff again.

 

I'm trying to compare this in this context with how charge vs terror works normally when the model is not immune (in that its only 1 test, but 2 attacks)

I always think of the 'Charge' as one main routine, with a couple of sub routines.

[DocSchlock]

Charge Action Attacks are explicitly not separate from the Charge Action. The Charge Action doesn't resolve until both attacks and all triggers they declare are resolved.

Edit: I don't have the rulebook on me, but I know it mentioned that Actions which generate Actions do not resolve until all Actions they generated are resolved.

This is why you can't use a (0) in between Charge Attacks.

He declares the Action
He fails the Horror Duel.
He Charges, swings both times.

Action Resolves.
RN swings now since it requires the resolution of the original Action that caused the WP duel that failed.

[Ausplosions]

Hmm. I think you might be right.

But I know that one focus doesn't work on both charge attacks...

[Bengt]

This is on page 38. Charge is even used as an example of action that generate other actions.

[DocSchlock]

But I know that one focus doesn't work on both charge attacks...

Correct. You pick which Attack to use your Focus on, if you want to use your Focus. That's how Focus works across all Actions that generate multiple Actions (like Flurry, Rapid Fire, etc). It's in the FAQ/Errata.

If you want logic for that, the Charge Action (as does Flurry, Rapid Fire) itself does not make any flips, so Focus wouldn't apply. Charge instead generates two Attack Actions that make flips instead, each of which you can choose to stone / end Focus for independently.

[Dirial]

Wow, I really had the wording of that RN ability wrong in my head. You're right, and I was totally wrong.

 

But he still can't do a (0) if paralyzed . Unless I'm wrong about that, too?

[AnythingBut]

But he still can't do a (0) if paralyzed . Unless I'm wrong about that, too?

Yeah you're right about being unable to even perform (0) actions. It's specified directly on page 52 of the large rulebook under the paralysed heading.

[DocSchlock]

Lenny never becomes Paralyzed though, as Paralyzed is a Condition and Lenny is immune to all Conditions.

He acts normally after failing any Horror Duel, but will hit triggers that require the failure of a Wp or Horror duel.

Edit: To make it clear, Lenny cannot gain ANY Conditions, ever.

This includes Focus, Defensive, Cursed Object, Distract, Poison, Burning, Slow, Fast, Paralyzed, etc.

[Bengt]

Yeah, apparently you can't be set on fire if you're stupid enough.

[Shadowfane]

However, bear in mind that automatic abilities, such as regeneration, DO work when paralysed - you activate, regen goes off, you generate 0 AP, and your activation ends.

[The Godlyness]

Yeah, apparently you can't be set on fire if you're stupid enough.

 

in game terms truth. but some people are stupid enough that if you lit them on fire they would not notice.

[Dirial]

However, bear in mind that automatic abilities, such as regeneration, DO work when paralysed - you activate, regen goes off, you generate 0 AP, and your activation ends.

 

Yeah, I know. I even wrote in the Wiki about the most evil offenders in that regard: Dita, Cisco and Papa.

[Omenbringer]

Charge Action Attacks are explicitly not separate from the Charge Action. The Charge Action doesn't resolve until both attacks and all triggers they declare are resolved.

Edit: I don't have the rulebook on me, but I know it mentioned that Actions which generate Actions do not resolve until all Actions they generated are resolved.

This is why you can't use a (0) in between Charge Attacks.

He declares the Action

He fails the Horror Duel.

He Charges, swings both times.

Action Resolves.

RN swings now since it requires the resolution of the original Action that caused the WP duel that failed.

You might want to take a look at the FAQ entry for the Brewmaster's Drinking Contest.