2nd Ed model only in starter boxes?

[Mako]

I agree with Lupercal, pretty much - They could physically achieve it, but they've made the decision that for them and store owners, individually packing those models would cause far more problems than it solves.

 

I've actually asked store owners (two, so not a huge number, but it's all I had to hand) and not having all those extra SKUs is a good thing from their perspective. People can think it's a money grab, or some other evil ploy to screw customers over, but it comes down to being impractical to do and so not getting done.

 

What's making me laugh more is the autocorrect rampaging throughout this thread, with a great many people wanting Wyrd to provide them an individually packed Barbados. Much as I'd love a Caribbean/Atlantic island, I doubt Wyrd are going to start selling those either

[Lupercal]

Lol yeah I didnt even know his name I thought it was Barbaros but I looked at like 4 posts and they all said Barbados so I went with it. 

[Omenbringer]

I have heard the "LGS said there were too many SKU's" defense a lot in regards to why the decision to restrict certain models only to crew boxes. I dont really believe it as I have yet to see a LGS that didn't carry hundreds if not thousands of SKU's for products they carry (how many SKU's are there for Warhammer 40k alone?). From the stores I have visited (I travel often and abroad in my job) and owners I have talked to it was more about this;

 

There were too many tiny blisters that didnt sell because they contained obscure models...

and that just weren't very good (did you ever see a Malifaux Child sell during 1st edition?). Skirmish games tend to suffer more from this than large wargames due to having so many named characters.

 

One of the strengths of making the new options such as Barbaros available individually (even if only via Wyrd's webstore) is to allow the LGS that still have plenty of existing metal stock (and almost all that I have visited have plenty) an option to sell without having to clearance rack them (even Wyrd still has metal stock listed in their webstore). Though I freely admit that some of this is motivated by personal desire (I did amass a collection of almost the entire 1st edition line and refuse to repurchase crew boxes for a single model) I am not alone, there was a fairly large community in place prior to M2e. Wyrd acknowledged the need to address these populations when they decided to publish the Arsenal decks. I agree completely and have several times across several threads over the last year that;

 

... the most elegant solution would be to sell the henchmen and totems separately only on the Wyrd site, Wyrd can make a little money, you can save a little money, and your FLGS doesn't need to be cluttered with a million blisters of things like totems.

And though I agree that Henchman and Named Enforcers are most likely to fall into this category there is at least one M2e Gremlin Master that would benefit from an individual totem blister.

 

As always this remains Wyrds ultimate decision however there is nothing wrong with civilly vocalizing a desire from a segment of their population.

[Omenbringer]

 ... but the fact remains that one single person could concievably buy a Lilith box set and 1-2 more terror tot sets on top, whereas the moment you sell someone a second edition Lilith box, they no longer will purchase a Barbados box.  So from Wyrds point of view its not a moot point at all. 

I get the argument however the same can be said for models like Cojo that are both unique and heavily tied to a particular master/ crew. Business wise was it really worth the effort to individually pack him rather than just include him with Marcus?

[Lupercal]

I get the argument however the same can be said for models like Cojo that are both unique and heavily tied to a particular master/ crew. Business wise was it really worth the effort to individually pack him rather than just include him with Marcus?

 

No honestly I doubt it was.  I think Cojo will probably sell very poorly compared to other m2e products or henchmen/enforcers that are not already in a starter box like Ama no Zako or Lazarus.  I know I will be buying a m2e Marcus box and will never be buying a Cojo box.  But that is the whole issue here.  I agree with you that it stinks to not be able to buy everything separately, I just get why Wyrd is doing it and can't really see a better option from their point of view. (aside from perhaps selling the henchman and stuff exclusively on the Wyrd webstore)

 

 

Edit- I agree it would be easier to sell old metals if you could sell them in bundles with new plastics but I think most people would just want a whole box of new plastics.  Still it would offer a cheaper alternative. 

 

I also agree that for some totems especially, non named enforcers, and perhaps even a few named henchmen or enforcers, that it would make sense to make a separate box set.  I don't really understand the reasoning behind for example, making a separate Cojo box and not making extra totem blisters for a master that needs more than you offer in the box.

[Lupercal]

Also I would like to add that there is a small minority that I am a part of that doesnt really care about owning duplicate models at all, and may even be willing to purchase metal and plastic versions of the same box provided the models look nice enough (I am personally thinking of the Kaeris and Lucius box sets when I mention this)

[Ausplosions]

Explain to me the difference between Barbados, which does come on it's own sprue, and say...3 plastic terror tots. Which are also part of a starter, and yet the same magic that precluded Barbados being released separately did not stop them from getting a box and their own release.

Because independent stockists don't want 300 SKUs for one game.

It has been explained, at length. Many times. It isn't laziness. It isn't a money grab. It is a policy to keep the people who sell the product, stocking the product.

[Omenbringer]

Because independent stockists don't want 300 SKUs for one game.

And yet they happily stock Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40k, Warmachine and Hordes all of which each have hundreds of SKU's a piece. Those that stock Infinity, Bolt Action or Flames of War are quickly creeping up to that high as well. Even M2e really isn't that far away when you consider the Avatars (96+ when only considering crew boxes and the avatars. Hell Fate Decks alone add another 7 SKU's to the game) that will eventually be released. Having lots of SKU's is a part of owning a retail business especially one that doesn't want to consistently lose out to online stores.

 

 

It is a policy to keep the people who sell the product, stocking the product.

I have talked with plenty of store owners who will not carry Wyrd Products due to feeling burned about their existing metal stocks.

[Lupercal]

 

I have talked with plenty of store owners who will not carry Wyrd Products due to feeling burned about their existing metal stocks.

 

I think those store owners are a large reason Wyrd wants less kits overall in m2e.  The whole point of reducing the number of SKUs is so that there wont be a portion of the stock that hardly ever sells.  I understand feeling burned about old metals may still be a reason a store might not want to carry Wyrd products, but overall its not like making more products in m2e is going to make them feel better about that.  Whereas they might feel a bit better if they hear Wyrd is attempting to cut down on the number of blisters and things that are more situational purchases than the starter boxes. 

[Dolomyte]

From a store perspective I totally don't buy that. You know what pisses me off about wyrd? Pretty much Jan - on from this year. Stuff would come up in the release preview, customers would pre-order and pay for it, and stuff is still not here.

 

I know it's taboo to mention other game companies. But there is another company out there with game in its name. I carry that companies extended line (Core Product + basically, New releases for a period, but they are pretty good about cycling those off at the right time). Everything else I order as requested. I am not required to have every sku they sell. Nor am I required to do that for Wyrd. I actually have a great strategy for Wyrd when stuff is coming out. I keep 1 crew box, 1 fate deck, 1 mini and big book, and 1 arsenal deck for every faction stocked at all times. When something like say teddy comes out I order 4 + pre-orders. Then when those four sell I don't order any more unless someone requests it. I've yet to be burned. That's my method for most things (Some samurai game that is very similar, a game that has monstrous and steampunk elements). If someone does not know how to maintain their inventory, or get's too hot on a game, that is their fault. Not Wyrds.

 

All that being said, Not selling barbaros as a single model does me no favors. I have a bunch of Mk1 players who would buy him was he out. I would order it for them, and my normal pack of 4, and then I would not worry about it again unless someone asked.

 

If Wyrd want's to do me a favor they will keep to release dates or not list release dates. I am THRILLED that the gencon stuff is not listed yet, because If I take a bunch of orders before I head out there and end up not seeing those models there, my guys are going to be dissapointed and pushed towards other companies. Which would upset me because I love Malifaux.

 

Malifaux is such a fantastic game to be a store owner for. The tournaments are quick and easy to run, I can have them done on sunday's so I don't need to worry about losing my saturdays which are usually reserved for games that take significantly longer. They lend themselves to slow-grow, campaign, and league play, all things which keep bodies in the store and keep people spending money. Plus the models (Old avatar marcus excluded, he was the worst thing I've ever seen put to metal) are amazing, and create a Pokemon like effect where when someone buys McMourning, all of a sudden he wants Nicodem, and Seamus, and Kirai, and Molly, and so on. But guess what, now there are multi faction models, so he buys Tara, and since he has her he gets Von Schill, Viks, etc. etc etc. Oh, and by the way, the new edition fixed the glaring issues the game had before. I've had some very good players actively trying to break 2.0 and they just cannot do it. Bravo to all the Wyrd staff, Justin, the play testers, and everyone on these forums for doing such a good job of paying attention to minutia this time around.

[Dolomyte]

And yet they happily stock Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40k, Warmachine and Hordes all of which each have hundreds of SKU's a piece. Those that stock Infinity, Bolt Action or Flames of War are quickly creeping up to that high as well. Even M2e really isn't that far away when you consider the Avatars (96+ when only considering crew boxes and the avatars. Hell Fate Decks alone add another 7 SKU's to the game) that will eventually be released. Having lots of SKU's is a part of owning a retail business especially one that doesn't want to consistently lose out to online stores.

 

I have talked with plenty of store owners who will not carry Wyrd Products due to feeling burned about their existing metal stocks.

 

I totally feel that pain. for the longest time I was awful at inventory control. I actually had to lose my store. get a job managing a big box retailer, then re-open my store with my new found knowledge to run a successful business.

 

Sku's are not an issue, a gaming store does not need to have all of the product in the store to be profitable. People will order stuff from your store if you give them a reason to. (A safe, well-lit, well maintained, terrain and table full environment that has a lot of different people for them to play against.) People buy from the LGS because they like going to the LGS, they do not buy from an LGS because they are impulse purchasers. Impulse business is probably less then 5% of my income.  

[NoHero]

Here's a idea; really simple. If you like the game and product, how about support Wyrd and buy their product. If you buy their stuff they will be more successful and come out with more stuff and maybe single blisters when they can afford to do that. Stop griping because you are cheap. This isn't a  cheap hobby.

[Eldarion]

Their stated reason is to avoid overrunning retailers with different SKUs / boxes. 

 

There are three retailers that carry Malifaux in my area:

One has about 2-foot by 3-foot of pegboard for Malifaux packs & crew boxes, which are all metal because they haven't restocked in that long.

One has about 4-foot by 6-foot of pegboard, mostly metals again, focused on the more expensive ones (crew boxes and avatars).

The third is about 8-foot by 8-foot of pegboard, and about 50/50 metal and plastics. 

 

If these guys are representative of LFGS in most areas, then Wyrd's probably right - adding too many different packs with such limited shelf space is just going to annoy the retailers - especially when there's still so much old metal still floating in the supply channel (and none of these stores dedicate all that much more space to Warhammer or Warmahordes, and even less than to Infinity than Malifaux - Boise is, once again, in thrall to M:tG.)

As a final note (for this post), if you're really wanting to get just a Barbaros, you could convert a metal Young Neph - add bigger wings and a sword.

[Lupercal]

From a store perspective I totally don't buy that. You know what pisses me off about wyrd? Pretty much Jan - on from this year. Stuff would come up in the release preview, customers would pre-order and pay for it, and stuff is still not here.

 

I know it's taboo to mention other game companies. But there is another company out there with game in its name. I carry that companies extended line (Core Product + basically, New releases for a period, but they are pretty good about cycling those off at the right time). Everything else I order as requested. I am not required to have every sku they sell. Nor am I required to do that for Wyrd. I actually have a great strategy for Wyrd when stuff is coming out. I keep 1 crew box, 1 fate deck, 1 mini and big book, and 1 arsenal deck for every faction stocked at all times. When something like say teddy comes out I order 4 + pre-orders. Then when those four sell I don't order any more unless someone requests it. I've yet to be burned. That's my method for most things (Some samurai game that is very similar, a game that has monstrous and steampunk elements). If someone does not know how to maintain their inventory, or get's too hot on a game, that is their fault. Not Wyrds.

 

All that being said, Not selling barbaros as a single model does me no favors. I have a bunch of Mk1 players who would buy him was he out. I would order it for them, and my normal pack of 4, and then I would not worry about it again unless someone asked.

 

If Wyrd want's to do me a favor they will keep to release dates or not list release dates. I am THRILLED that the gencon stuff is not listed yet, because If I take a bunch of orders before I head out there and end up not seeing those models there, my guys are going to be dissapointed and pushed towards other companies. Which would upset me because I love Malifaux.

 

Malifaux is such a fantastic game to be a store owner for. The tournaments are quick and easy to run, I can have them done on sunday's so I don't need to worry about losing my saturdays which are usually reserved for games that take significantly longer. They lend themselves to slow-grow, campaign, and league play, all things which keep bodies in the store and keep people spending money. Plus the models (Old avatar marcus excluded, he was the worst thing I've ever seen put to metal) are amazing, and create a Pokemon like effect where when someone buys McMourning, all of a sudden he wants Nicodem, and Seamus, and Kirai, and Molly, and so on. But guess what, now there are multi faction models, so he buys Tara, and since he has her he gets Von Schill, Viks, etc. etc etc. Oh, and by the way, the new edition fixed the glaring issues the game had before. I've had some very good players actively trying to break 2.0 and they just cannot do it. Bravo to all the Wyrd staff, Justin, the play testers, and everyone on these forums for doing such a good job of paying attention to minutia this time around.

 

I am not a store owner so I wont pretend to know what it is like to run one.  I don't necessarily believe that less SKUs is a good thing but I was giving the reasons I thought it could beand the reasons stated by Wyrd, and I do think that in some cases there are models that dont need to be sold separately.  Maybe attatching totems to masters even if the masters are sold separately might help with this but then people who just want the master will be upset at a price increase.  I think this issue will probably be less pronounced in m2e than it was in first edition and to some extent it could be ignored in favor of more kits.  But at the end of the day I think the problem is one of resources.

 

I definitely agree with you that some models make more sense than others to have sold separately, like anything that doesnt exist already in metal.  I also agree with you that Wyrds release dates have been ridiculous and that not saying what will be at Gencon until they absolutely know is a great policy(maybe a sign they are thinking a bit straighter?).  I just think that if Wyrd is so behind on production like this already and struggling to keep up with their schedule as it is, asking them to package a bunch more models separately seems a bit silly.  It IS more work even if it makes sense to do from other standpoints.  At the end of the day if Wyrd was as big as a certain company with game in its name I bet they would love to make a ton of kits of different varieties and I bet it would at least help to solve the release date issues, even if it is no excuse for failing to meet release dates now.  Maybe someone at Wyrd should at least come up with a more realistic timeline so all this preordering with delays doesnt happen. 

 

We are all frustrated that they cant make the models we want to buy fast enough, and dissapointed that they say they will have them out on a certain date and then don't.  Maybe it's because I rarely preorder models(I am sure it is more rage inducing if you do), but I am not going to stop playing the game because new models aren't coming out on time. 

 

EDIT -

 

Their stated reason is to avoid overrunning retailers with different SKUs / boxes. 

 

There are three retailers that carry Malifaux in my area:

One has about 2-foot by 3-foot of pegboard for Malifaux packs & crew boxes, which are all metal because they haven't restocked in that long.

One has about 4-foot by 6-foot of pegboard, mostly metals again, focused on the more expensive ones (crew boxes and avatars).

The third is about 8-foot by 8-foot of pegboard, and about 50/50 metal and plastics. 

 

If these guys are representative of LFGS in most areas, then Wyrd's probably right - adding too many different packs with such limited shelf space is just going to annoy the retailers - especially when there's still so much old metal still floating in the supply channel (and none of these stores dedicate all that much more space to Warhammer or Warmahordes, and even less than to Infinity than Malifaux - Boise is, once again, in thrall to M:tG.)

As a final note (for this post), if you're really wanting to get just a Barbaros, you could convert a metal Young Neph - add bigger wings and a sword.

 

I also want to add that my experience is similar to his.  There are 4 stores in my local area that carry Malifaux that I have played at.  One no longer has any malifaux presence and will not restock or order anything new unless by request, but has plenty of old metals.  Two are a chain of stores, one of which has no presence, the other has a smaller group that meets once a week for grow leagues and is largely made up of new players.  They are in the same boat with a huge number of old metal models, avatar boxes, pretty much the entire metal line. The new stuff they will pretty much only order by request other than the plastic crew boxes, which they have a very large stock of and sell a lot of because of the number of new players.  The last one is the one I have been playing at that actually has a pretty large group of people who play, but still has a bunch of old metals, some of which will sell but some of which I am sure will probably never sell.  At this store you might be able to get away with a ton more new plastic kits as they would probably stock them, but the store is still largely dominated by other games and MtG.

 

EDIT - Apparently this store's owner does not want more box sets and SKUs he wants less, as explained later by Reikeiji's post.

[Poko]

 

Because independent stockists don't want 300 SKUs for one game.

And as I said very early, I'd be totally fine with them selling the kit as webstore exclusive. To which you (I think?) answered that it's a drain on resources because you have to keep them in stock and they might not sell. Which is always a risk with any product, but they have other Rare units on sale separately and despite ever being allowed to run 1 or 2, they do get sold. If Barbados is unlikely to sell that much, you can just stock less of it.

And if you think it wont sell at all..perhaps it's a sign to check it's stats as to why? Anyhow, Barbados is just an example, it could be any of the "rare" models in each starter box- golem, samuel and so on.

 

 

Stop griping because you are cheap

Oh, I'm so sorry sir. I did not know it's Member's only club. Pardon me. Let me get my pauper-ass out of the door to not break the sacrosanct of your hobby.

 

The hobby IS fairly cheap. Compare it to real hobbies, like car renovation, skiing or even bicycle riding, it's very cheap. It still doesn't mean I enjoy wasting money on product I don't need to get 1 I want. I'm not a charity.

[Omenbringer]

Here's a idea; really simple. If you like the game and product, how about support Wyrd and buy their product. If you buy their stuff they will be more successful and come out with more stuff and maybe single blisters when they can afford to do that. Stop griping because you are cheap. This isn't a  cheap hobby.

Not sure who this is directed at but I find it rather insulting regardless, especially if it was at me. As for "support Wyrd by buying their product", well I have nearly every model from 1st edition do I have a voice now?

 

Repurchasing all those crews for the handful of models that are new is an unrealistic expectation any way you look at it. This isn't a "cheap" thing this is a "can you throw the guys who got you here a bone?" thing. Many of the population that are asking for the independent blisters have contributed substantially (both in product purchases and time spent promoting their products) to the success of the company (making a 2nd edition even possible).

[valhallan42nd]

Convert him from a young neph if you don't want to buy him in the box set.

[Omenbringer]

I could definitely do that and probably will if I don't have a viable option from Wyrd (that doesn't start with "just buy a new crew box" or "try the (non-existent) secondary market").

 

With this logic though I could of course also just convert an entire Brew Master or Sheng Long crew (GCT has some great looking models in their Bushido range that would fit with little modification) or build that Nicodem crew I've been thinking about using Games Workshop and Reaper minis. Rather than supporting Wyrd's many competitors though I would prefer to give them my money.

 

This really isn't an unreasonable request (especially the web store only option) and additionally, it is a request that could aid in recovering the investment cost of creating the Barbaros mold (by offering another method of increasing product sales volume, more units sold means quicker return on investment).

[Ausplosions]

Wyrd doesn't owe you or any of us a single thing.

They provide a service, we choose whether or not to purchase that service.

Their new business model makes more sense for FUTURE customers, and less for the ones who already own models.

So what? That's how business works. Seriously. Deal with it.

[Dolomyte]

That's the opposite of how business works. Especially a miniature gaming company. you don't intentionally screw over your existing customer base.

 

I'm pretty sure all of us are dealing with it. some people are buying the starter, some people are doing conversions, some people are using proxies. None of that prohibits us from coming onto the wyrd forums and bringing it to the staff's attention as an issue to their existing customers. They may never do anything about it. but the day we are not allowed to ask and or complain about it is the day I stop buying their product.

[Ausplosions]

No. It really is EXACTLY how business works. They have your money for existing product. They release new product. You need new product. You buy new product.

The manner in which they have released the new product just means you need to pay more for it than you used to. That really is EXACTLY how business works.

Is it going to impact older, existing customers? Yes. Enough to stop this customers buying ANY product? Probably not.

[Omenbringer]

Pretty much what Dolomyte says above. None of us are saying they owe us anything, we are voicing a desire (that has come up more than a few times and from both new and old). If Wyrd never listened to their customer base (even one that may be a minority) then we would more than likely still have 1.5 rather than M2e. Though you may not see a need for it there are those that do and their opinion/ desire is just as valid as yours.

[Ausplosions]

this is a "can you throw the guys who got you here a bone?" thing. Many of the population that are asking for the independent blisters have contributed substantially (both in product purchases and time spent promoting their products) to the success of the company (making a 2nd edition even possible).

Tell me again how you aren't saying Wyrd owes you?

[Dolomyte]

"Can you throw the guys who got you here a bone" does not equal "Hey, Jerk Bags, Make this model now or we're going to come burn down your plant"

 

It's a request, and a rather polite one at that. Supported by facts (the fact that first edition players did in fact make a second edition possible. I, like so many of you, own every metal model wyrd made (and most plastics))

 

Wyrd does not owe us anything, but if they consistently ignore us (which they don't, as a company they are very good at listening to feedback and making changes. I'm looking at you mechanical rider), we won't keep buying their product, and listening and taking care of your customers is the way to keep them, because much like wyrd and us. We don't owe them anything.

[Dolomyte]

No. It really is EXACTLY how business works. They have your money for existing product. They release new product. You need new product. You buy new product.

The manner in which they have released the new product just means you need to pay more for it than you used to. That really is EXACTLY how business works.

Is it going to impact older, existing customers? Yes. Enough to stop this customers buying ANY product? Probably not.

 

Here's the flaw in your business model "You need new product." Customer's don't need anything. We want it, but we don't need it. So we don't buy the new product, and we either supplement with other companies product (which is definitely not what wyrd wants) or we convert existing models (which they probably don't really care about.)