2nd Ed model only in starter boxes?

[mauler78]

I have Neverborn, but get the starter boxes from the old 1st ed.  Right now I am playing Lilith, but can't seem to find Barbaros seperate of the starter box.  I really would prefer not to have to reinvest in models that I already own and have painted.

 

When is Wyrd going to release those models separate of the starter box?

[edonil]

As of right now, Wyrd has stated they do not intend to release those models separately.

[Omenbringer]

This is one of those things that those who invested into 1st edition (as I am sure the LGS that still have metal crew boxes do as well) hope changes . You can try the "secondary market" but its unlikely you'll be able to get those models.

[Ausplosions]

Yeah, Wyrd has stated that in order to reduce SKU numbers for retailers, totems and select Henchmen/Enforcers will not be available separately, and that this policy is unlikely to ever change. Is it annoying? Sure. But I understand the reasoning.

[Lupercal]

I have seen Barbaros alone on sale on a certain auction site before, but it might be easier to buy the box set and try to sell the models you dont want on the "secondary market", especially if you dont want to wait around for someone to sell a single Barbaros.

[mauler78]

I won't lie this seems like a really bad business model since it is basically having people invest in models they likely already own.

 

For example, the Lilith box might have been worth it if I was getting stuff I don't own, and Lilith was the only repeat model, but I have plenty of Tots, a Cherub and obviously Lilith.  So am feel I am dropping $45 on a model that should like only cost me $15.

And I get what people are saying about buy the box and second market the stuff, but really what can I get rid of in that box.  Maybe the Tots?  The rest of it is pretty much attached to Lilith and no one else can use them.

[Ausplosions]

 The rest of it is pretty much attached to Lilith and no one else can use them.

 

 

Untrue. 

 

 

And it is a sound business model BECAUSE it forces people to re-buy.

[zFiend]

And it is a sound business model BECAUSE it forces people to re-buy.

 

Sad but true.

[Poko]

 

And it is a sound business model BECAUSE it forces people to re-buy.

In short term, sure. In the long run, you have now a significant group of very disgruntled players who felt forced to buy something they didn't need/want. I can understand not selling it in a box, but apart from a few cases, those modles come on separate sprue- why not have it on sale in Wyrd Store as bits?

[edonil]

Because they then need to order extra product to store with no certainty of selling it, but being fully responsible for having it on hand for tax time. It's the same reason GW stopped their bits ordering, and why so many companies never started.

[Ausplosions]

Because they then need to order extra product to store with no certainty of selling it, but being fully responsible for having it on hand for tax time. It's the same reason GW stopped their bits ordering, and why so many companies never started.

Exactly.

Products change. Deal with it I guess. 5 years from now it won't be an issue for the majority of the customer base anyway.

[Poko]

 Because they then need to order extra product to store with no certainty of selling it

So it's like every other product? Funny how most companies can manage to sell single models either as blister or box, and even Wyrd can manage that with a lot of their items, but miraculously, some of them just won't fit into box. It's Wyrd's right to not sell something, but please don't make it like it's anything but conscious decision to attempt to get more sales on the starters.

[Ausplosions]

So it's like every other product? Funny how most companies can manage to sell single models either as blister or box, and even Wyrd can manage that with a lot of their items, but miraculously, some of them just won't fit into box. It's Wyrd's right to not sell something, but please don't make it like it's anything but conscious decision to attempt to get more sales on the starters.

It really isn't. It's a nice side effect for them I'm sure, but I would doubt highly it is a marketing strategy.

[Ausplosions]

So it's like every other product? Funny how most companies can manage to sell single models either as blister or box, and even Wyrd can manage that with a lot of their items, but miraculously, some of them just won't fit into box. It's Wyrd's right to not sell something, but please don't make it like it's anything but conscious decision to attempt to get more sales on the starters.

No its not like "every other product". It would be actually having to order extra Babaros just to have the bits market stocked.

Ridiculous.

And also, it has nothing to do with fitting a model into a box. What gave you the idea that was the reason?

[Dolomyte]

Sorry Aus but you are wrong on this one. In first edition they sold the models separate with no apparent ill effect to the company (it launched 2nd and 400 board games) and other game companies who have starter boxes allow you to buy those models outside of the boxes with again, no apparent ill effect. This is a money grab / laziness. and to wyrd's credit / discredit I am guessing it's the latter way more then the former to be honest.

[Loveless]

It's a little awkward with some of the unique models and M2E-new Henchmen.  M1E players won't have Barbatos, but any M2E player wanting Lillith will.  Obviously he's useful in more than just her crew, though thematically he belongs with Lillith.  Rasputina players might want another Ice Golem, but they're stuck having to buy a second Raspy box to get him.  If you want any Henchman, you're out of luck - all of them are starter box specific, aren't they?

 

New players are going to end up getting them anyway - you can't grab a Master without a corresponding Henchman in most instances.  It makes things a little awkward if you want to stick with a Master or already have stuff from the previous edition (though, with very few exceptions, the plastic stuff looks so much better than the metals that I'm surprised everyone isn't upgrading anyway ).

 

It "hurts" the M1E players in the event of new crew box models - it also can burn all players if the model is not Rare 1 and only available in the crew box.

 

However, I'm really not sure a standalone Barbatos box would sell that well...you might grab a few of the M1E players who haven't upgraded their Lillith crews, but is it worth the hassle, costs, and store shelf space?  Best bet would probably be to offer him and similiar models as Wyrd exclusives.  Keeps retailer space tight and gives an option that enables the old players to get their stuff.

[Bengt]

It's quite different selling metal bits and plastic bits. When GW sold bits they also sold most of their back catalogue, they would cast old stuff on demand that they had stopped selling in blisters years before. In their own cast shop, pretty much next door to their warehouse.

 

Wyrd plastic is cast in china, and even if the models are separate frames of a large sprue, you have to cast the entire sprue and discard the parts you can't sell if you just want one of those subframes. Unless you make separate moulds from the digital masters, which is certainly possible. But plastic moulds are considerably more expensive than pewter moulds, so if you make too many different ones your margins go down.

[Poko]

 

No its not like "every other product". It would be actually having to order extra Babaros just to have the bits market stocked.

Explain to me the difference between Barbados, which does come on it's own sprue, and say...3 plastic terror tots. Which are also part of a starter, and yet the same magic that precluded Barbados being released separately did not stop them from getting a box and their own release.

[Omenbringer]

Wyrd plastic is cast in china, and even if the models are separate frames of a large sprue, you have to cast the entire sprue and discard the parts you can't sell if you just want one of those subframes. Unless you make separate moulds from the digital masters, which is certainly possible. But plastic moulds are considerably more expensive than pewter moulds, so if you make too many different ones your margins go down.

These large sprues can easily incorporate "gates" to separate the sub sections. I would assume this is being utilized to create the sprues for the more numerous models (such as the recently released Bayou Gremlins) rather than paying for the creation of an individual mold just for just them.

 

As Poko mentions above, creating an Ice Golem for individual sale should be no more difficult than it was for them to create the Ice Gamins which they do sell independent of the Rasputina crew box (or the Terror Tots, Bayou Gremlins, etc).

[edonil]

Those three models are something people can use six or nine of them. Barbados is Rare 1, and you can never use more than one.

[Omenbringer]

Rather a moot point dont you think? There are other Masters that might want those unique "Rare 1" models within their crews. Take the Lacroix's for example. Many of them are considered very desirable regardless of gremlin Master and yet they will eventually (once the existing metal supplies dry up) be available only in that 1 particular crew box. Again referencing the earlier Rasputina example there are people who want multiple Ice Golem and yet their only option currently is to either  by the metal one (which looks very different from the new plastic one), repurchase the crew box or hope for a lucky break on the secondary market.

 

With Barbaros in particular though, who's to say we wont see another Neverborn Master in the future that he would work really well with.

[Dolomyte]

Right, but you can use him as his own master, or with every other neverborn master

[Dolomyte]

assuming he is a henchmen. he might be an enforcer. I'm at work.

[Omenbringer]

Barbaros is a Henchman.

[Lupercal]

A lot of people seem to be making arguments about whether they can or can't package Barbados separately.  Obviously they could if they wanted to, it is no more difficult than it is to put out terror tots separately or whatever.  The problem is that this is not a question of whether they can or can't.  It is a question about whether or not they should. 

 

From what I understand it was a large problem last edition for FLGS to move all the product that Wyrd produced.  There were too many tiny blisters that didnt sell because they contained obscure models or models that were already in the box sets and you didn't need more than one of them.  I dont know how pronounced this was for other people but I know I have seen plenty of stores with a ton of really dumb first edition blisters that will probably sit there forever.  I understand that this could come off as a money grab to sell starter sets but I dont think the FLGS would appreciate all the boxes that will never sell.

 

At the same time you have people complaining that everything is always so behind schedule, and you guys want Wyrd to stop and spend a bunch of time making these henchmen and totem blisters/boxes that most people wont buy anyway.  I mean think about the number of masters there are in the game, and then double that number, and you have approximately the number of henchmen/enforcer and totem sets they would need to produce in addition to all the things they have on their behind schedule "To Do" list already.  Granted they have the sprues and can set up "gates" to easily make a Barbados sprue or whatever, but they still need to make boxes and package each of those boxes, multiply that by the number of henchmen and totems that would be individually sold and you have a whole hell of a lot more work.

 

Maybe they could have separately sold just the henchmen and enforcers as they are more likely to sell separately than totems and it would be less work than all of it together.

 

Maybe after they have gotten all the old stuff updated into plastic then they can start worrying about things like individual henchmen boxes, but by then im sure most people will either have figured out a way around it or won't have been playing long enough for it to even be a problem. 

 

I agree with Loveless that the most elegant solution would be to sell the henchmen and totems separately only on the Wyrd site, Wyrd can make a little money, you can save a little money, and your FLGS doesn't need to be cluttered with a million blisters of things like totems.  But especially right now with gencon about to happen and everything behind schedule, I think it would be more of a resource allocation problem than anything assuming Wyrd even wanted to do it. 

 

Edit-This post was made while I was typing my slowness out.

 

Rather a moot point dont you think? There are other Masters that might want those unique "Rare 1" models within their crews. Take the Lacroix's for example. Many of them are considered very desirable regardless of gremlin Master and yet they will eventually (once the existing metal supplies dry up) be available only in that 1 particular crew box. Again referencing the earlier Rasputina example there are people who want multiple Ice Golem and yet their only option currently is to either  by the metal one (which looks very different from the new plastic one), repurchase the crew box or hope for a lucky break on the secondary market.

 

With Barbaros in particular though, who's to say we wont see another Neverborn Master in the future that he would work really well with.

 

 

 In addition, it is not a moot point at all from a business model point of view that one person can use 3-9 terror tots but only 1 Barbados.  I understand that you are talking about (presumably yourself) someone with the old lilith models already or someone who wants Barbados to use with a master other than lilith, but the fact remains that one single person could concievably buy a Lilith box set and 1-2 more terror tot sets on top, whereas the moment you sell someone a second edition Lilith box, they no longer will purchase a Barbados box.  So from Wyrds point of view its not a moot point at all.