Push Base to base with a scheme marker

[rgarbonzo]

Just what the title says when you push b2b with a scheme marker can you go over the marker to the other side or do you stop the moment you hit B2B contact?

[Joel]

a push towards an object takes a straight line, shortest path.  so no - you'd move up to the near side of the marker and stop.

[zFiend]

a push towards an object takes a straight line, shortest path.  so no - you'd move up to the near side of the marker and stop.

 

[Sevorin]

 Yeah, that would be my answer as well, but someone did it in a game rgarbonzo was playing (I was watching), and I couldn't argue with the wording of the push. The push just says end in btb, and the push still can take the shortest route, and still end in btb on the opposite side.

 

 The problem is that it doesnt say "end push when it gets to BtB" or something similar, so it can be read that you can push to the other side.

[Ausplosions]

The shortest route to b2b is to the closest edge. There is no way it can be to the other side and be a shorter route.

[The Godlyness]

if it is a direct push maybe but the wording of "Usually, when a model is pushed it must be moved as close to the maximum distance of the Push as possible" so technically maximum distance is the other side.  since you cant push through non-incorpreal models not a bif deal to end in b2b but for markers i see no reason why you cant push to the opposite side.

 

and at Joel why is it the shortest path? an away or towards push sure. but a push to b2b is not a towards push

 

did you move in a straight line. yes ok did you end in b2b yes. ok then action, effect, abilty has been satisfied

[Sevorin]

 I would add that under pg 43 of the rulebook, I don't see "shortest route possible". I seem to remember that in a 1.5 FAQ, but not M2E. Pg 43 actually says maximum distance in a straight line. Maximum is used twice.

[The Godlyness]

i dont know of any models that have an abilty or something that says

 

"push towards target model until your in b2b"

 

its always "push this model into base contact with the target."

 

and with pushes that end in b2b i can go left or right of target.  i do it all the time with teddy. why do people always assume shortest route?

[Sevorin]

For reference, the actual ability used was Gator Snack on McTavish, but it still applies to other pushes that are worded the same, especially for markers, or incorporeal models (since all other models cannot be passed through).

[Csonti]

I think the problem lies in the interpretation of directly towards which is not defined in the rulebook as a game term. One side says this means "move in a straight line heading to the center of your target and stop when you arrive" - this is clearly must be the shortest route and will end when B2B position is reached. Others think that it is more like "pick a spot what you can reach and move in a straight line" and if this place is one of the closest point to the target the model can reach the move is fine. 

 

 

Some game effects require a model to be Pushed in 

relation to another object, such as towards or away from 

another model. When this happens the model must move 

in a straight line while obeying these restrictions, moving 

directly towards (or away from) the specified object.

[The Godlyness]

Ironsides you looking at me is a towards push. Trixxiebelles "lure" is an away push. Teddys peekaboo trigger is just a push. Does not have the key words of towards or away. Neither does gator snack

[Joel]

the towards or away are simply examples in that quote - you are still being pushed in relation to another object.  you move directly (which is the shortest path) and in a straight line.

[Csonti]

Ironsides you looking at me is a towards push. Trixxiebelles "lure" is an away push. Teddys peekaboo trigger is just a push. Does not have the key words of towards or away. Neither does gator snack

 

Looks like there is another interpretation issue. The above quoted paragraph applies to these situations and all of your mentioned pushes have to obey the "moving directly towards (or away from) the specified object" part of the rules.

[mythicFOX]

Joel.

 

It's useful to quote the rules we're talking about;

 

(0) Gator Snack: Discard a Corpse, Scrap, or Scheme Marker within 3" to push this model into base contact with the Marker before discarding it and then flip a card which may be cheated. Apply...

[Joel]

which would mean that as soon as base contact is achieved (i.e. near side) then the push stops as its fulfilled the requirement.

[The Godlyness]

At the same time if you pushed to the other side you have met the requirements. And as I quoted above it does say you must move the maximum you can. In this case since the marker does not impede you have to be on the other side.

Again did you move in a straight line check are you in base check. Requirements have been met continue on.

[Adran]

Since the rules for pushes toward say you must move directly towards, you can't then move past the middle as you would be pushing away. Hence you must stop 

Its one of the subtle changes that 2nd edition has. All pushes that have any degree of direction to them (Ie towards or away from) are in a completely fixed direction, with no room for leeway or choice.

[mythicFOX]

Since the rules for pushes toward say you must move directly towards, you can't then move past the middle as you would be pushing away.

 

That makes sense with a slight modification. IIRC when you measure you measure between the closest points.

 

So I'd say once you've made contact the two points you're measuring between are now in contact, and you cannot now move further without increasing the distance between the points of measurement and moving further away again.

[Cunning]

But by that logic you could push to the side of the marker.  

 

Unless the ability says towards it does not have to be the shortest route as i read the rules on pushes.  Whether, as MythicFox says, once you are in b2b you can no longer push any further is, i think, up for debate and I think needs clarification.

 

EDIT:  Hmm, having reread the rules i do think now it should be shortest route,still not sure on the second bit though.

[mythicFOX]

It doesn't actually have to say 'towards' though, the rule applies when a push is in relation to something, for example a scheme marker. At which point it has to push in a strait line directly towards it. 

 

My point is if you measure closest point to closest point (green dots) then once the model (1) contacts the marker (2) then those points are in contact and there's no way of moving the model without moving the two closest points further away from each other;

 

[The Godlyness]

It doesn't actually have to say 'towards' though, the rule applies when a push is in relation to something, for example a scheme marker. At which point it has to push in a strait line directly towards it.

 

 

 

i guess this is where we disagree.  my opinion and Vote is that i pushed in a straight line. i ended in base contact.

 

now dont get me wrong i am not obtuse enough to blatantly  shake my head saying nein nein nein nein. i see where you are coming from. i could very well be wrong and have played it wrong since day one and not a single person has noticed or cared or knew. which then i feel like an ass.

 

But i am stubborn enough to say Towards and Away are key words that have their own meaning.

[Joel]

And "such as" means that "here are examples, but these are not exclusive of other examples"

[Tuttleboy]

Lets look at all the rules from the rule book under Push.

 

 

A Push is an effect that moves a model in a straight line, such as an explosive force shoving a model back, or a model being thrown by a larger friend. Talents that cause a Push (instead of a Move) will state that the effect is a Push.

 

A Push is not a normal move, and it does not count as a "move" for rules purposes. Pushes are not affected by severe terrain. Usually, when a model is pushed it must be moved as close to the maximum distance of the Push as possible, in a straight line. However, some push effects will state that a model is pushed "up to" a distance. In this case, the controller of the pushing effect may choose how far the model is pushed, up to the maximum distance.

 

Some game effects require a model to be Pushed in relation to another object, such as towards or away from another model. When this happens the model must move in a straight line while obeying these restrictions, moving directly towards (or away from) the specified object.

 

 

Now the rules from McTavish

 

 

(0) Gator Snack: Discard a Corpse, Scrap, or Scheme Marker within 3" to push this model into base contact with the marker and then flip a card which may be cheated. Apply one of the following depending on the suit:

: This model may perform a (1) AP Attack Action.

: This model heals 2 damage.

: This model draws 1 card.

: Push this model up to 4" in any direction.

 

 

The rule on McTavish's rule will supersede the general rule because the rules tell us:

 

 

Models in Malifaux have many unique rules which override the core rules. This goes for any special rules, even those from terrain or an Encounter. When a special rule explicitly contradicts these core rules, follow the special rule rather than the core rule.

 

McTavish's rule doesn't say toward a marker, it says into base contact with. This leads me to believe that you can pick any part of the marker and push in a straight line to that portion of the marker.

 

 

But I could be over-thinking it a bit.

[mythicFOX]

The argument that states you go to the other side of the marker stems from the requirement in the 2nd quote 3rd paragraph below; "Usually, when a model is pushed it must be moved as close to the maximum distance of the Push as possible, in a straight line." I'd contest that 'maximum distance of the Push' is the stated distance, eg Push 6". I don't think it applies unless there's a stated maximum distance to the push.

Similarly the point about the rule needing to specifically use the words towards or away in order to make use of the third paragraph (of the 2nd quote) doesn't really hold when you read it through. Towards and away are given as examples in the sentence, 'such as towards or away', it's not exclusive.

It's worth noting as well that 'such as' is also used in the next paragraph to give examples of when to stop a push.

All IMHO.

EDIT: @ Tuttleboy - Key point, McTavish's rule doesn't explicitly contradict any of the core rules so I don't see it overriding them. IMO if they meant the ability to place the model in contact with the marker they'd have used the word place, not push.

For reference all the relevant rules;

When measuring a distance between two objects on the table, measure from the closest point of one object’s base to the closest point on the other object’s base. All measurements between objects should be made using the shortest distances possible.

A Push is an effect that moves a model in a straight line, such as an explosive force shoving a model back, or a model being thrown by a larger friend. Talents that cause a Push (instead of a Move) will state that the effect is a Push.

A Push is not a normal move, and it does not count as a "move" for rules purposes. Pushes are not affected by severe terrain.

Usually, when a model is pushed it must be moved as close to the maximum distance of the Push as possible, in a straight line. However, some push effects will state that a model is pushed "up to" a distance. In this case, the controller of the pushing effect may choose how far the model is pushed, up to the maximum distance.

Some game effects require a model to be Pushed in relation to another object, such as towards or away from another model. When this happens the model must move in a straight line while obeying these restrictions, moving directly towards (or away from) the specified object.

The pushed model cannot pass through impassable objects (such as other models, or walls) or climb. If a pushed model comes into contact with an object that is impassible, the pushed model stops in base contact with the object.

(0) Gator Snack: Discard a Corpse, Scrap, or Scheme Marker within 3" to push this model into base contact with the Marker before discarding it and then flip a card which may be cheated. Apply...

[Tuttleboy]

@mythicFOX

 

You're probably right. Like I said I could be over thinking it and seeing an implied push into any part of the marker. I think questions like this have come up several times and I think we could use some direction on it in the FAQ so we can just put it to bed.

[Ausplosions]

It doesn't need FAQ.

It is perfectly clear of the rules are correctly read.

Pushes IN RELATION TO another point ALWAYS move DIRECTLY towards or away from that point. With measurements being made from the closest to closest point.

There is ZERO room for alternate interpretation. You cannot move past the marker and still be moving towards the closest point you measured to.