Balance

[Sevorin]

 I've been quite happy with the balance in M2E. 

 

 I've only found one hole, in my opinion, Marcus' ability to Beast, and Alpha masters. This ability should really be non-master. My opponent made Yan Lo a beast (which then made me neg on flips), and alpha'd him (not difficult to do when you are on negs). That allowed his to drop one of his upgrades, some of his chi, and then use the rest of his abilities. Seems to be a little OTT. 

 

 Not complaining. Just my observation. I'm guessing Marcus' players would disagree (of course ).

[Omenbringer]

Marcus being able to Alpha Masters was a complaint last edition as well. I have often thought that despite difficulty it should fall into the same realm as Obey and be limited to Non-master.

[dgraz]

I am a big Marcus player, and I have to agree. You think the Yan Lo thing was bad? Try being Ramos and being forced to blow up half your crew and yourself.

[Arli]

As a Marcus player, in the past, I have had an extremely hard time getting that sort of use of Alpha when dealing with any matter.

I could be doing it wrong too.

[dgraz]

As a Marcus player, in the past, I have had an extremely hard time getting that sort of use of Alpha when dealing with any matter.

I could be doing it wrong too.

Some masters it isn't worth it on, but others it's crushing. With Marcus' Ca of 7 and the ability to use SS for the suit it's easy to do. Use Trail of the Gods for an 8" Walk to get into position, one big card to make sure Feral goes off....then Domesticate, then it usually only requires a semi-decent card (and maybe a SS) to Alpha them.......they can't burn a SS for Defense to get past the neg flip because it targets Wp......if they don't flip the RJ, they're probably done.

 

I would like to say that I'd like to see something added to compensate for it if it was changed, but I really can't in good conscience. Marcus' other de-buffing abilities already work plenty good to knock an enemy master down a peg.

[EnternalVoid]

Some masters it isn't worth it on, but others it's crushing. With Marcus' Ca of 7 and the ability to use SS for the suit it's easy to do. Use Trail of the Gods for an 8" Walk to get into position, one big card to make sure Feral goes off....then Domesticate, then it usually only requires a semi-decent card (and maybe a SS) to Alpha them.......they can't burn a SS for Defense to get past the neg flip because it targets Wp......if they don't flip the RJ, they're probably done.

 

I would like to say that I'd like to see something added to compensate for it if it was changed, but I really can't in good conscience. Marcus' other de-buffing abilities already work plenty good to knock an enemy master down a peg.

 

Actually they can spend a soulstone to get past the negative for the defense flip.  Defense Duel and Defense flip are two different thing.  On page 26 of the main rule book in the call out box at the bottom talking about Common Flip Types it lists what some common types are, such as Attack Flip and Defense Flip.  On page 28 when it talks about uses of Soulstones it says "it may spend one soulstone to add a positive to its Defense Flip".  So yes you can get positives on Willpower Duels from Soulstones.  Otherwise that would make Pandora with any sort of Negative Willpower terrifying.

 

Still a mess though to resist Marcus as most masters have Wp6, so having Ca7 he has the advantage.  At the very least Domesticate is still in Effect when you control the enemy model as it still counts as an enemy.  So if you went with Domesitcate to try and get it off, they will have Negative Flips on all duels during the activation.

[Justin]

Actually they can spend a soulstone to get past the negative for the defense flip.  Defense Duel and Defense flip are two different thing.  On page 26 of the main rule book in the call out box at the bottom talking about Common Flip Types it lists what some common types are, such as Attack Flip and Defense Flip.  On page 28 when it talks about uses of Soulstones it says "it may spend one soulstone to add a positive to its Defense Flip".  So yes you can get positives on Willpower Duels from Soulstones.  Otherwise that would make Pandora with any sort of Negative Willpower terrifying.

 

Still a mess though to resist Marcus as most masters have Wp6, so having Ca7 he has the advantage.  At the very least Domesticate is still in Effect when you control the enemy model as it still counts as an enemy.  So if you went with Domesitcate to try and get it off, they will have Negative Flips on all duels during the activation.

 

Correct.

[dgraz]

Wow, I've been playing that wrong for a long time.

 

True about Domesticate, which is why it often isn't worth it to try for a melee master to beat up their own crew....but it's awesome on some masters (the Ramos example)........the other really nasty trick is to get the master engaged with a Rattler, or Myranda, or both....and just have the master attempt to disengage...with the neg flips for defense, they should take plenty of Wicked damage.

[Sevorin]

Or they could just discard your recalled training you had on your master and get straight flips for his activation. Haha. Bastid.

[dgraz]

Or they could just discard your recalled training you had on your master and get straight flips for his activation. Haha. Bastid.

Haha....I haven't played enough against 10T to think of that. Evil.

[DeleteAccount]

I'm a lot more scared with the Marcus Missile of getting me to be a beast either with Shilelagh or Feral, then Darzes's Chaunt and proceed to beat the hell out of me thanks to having min damage 4 and possibly Melee Expert and Fast from Imbued energies. Very hard to control and using a SS for defense won't do crap to help you stop it unless you got into defensive stance and even then, it's nothing to be thrilled about. But this player also takes the Myranda transform into a cerberus with imbued energies combo and Killjoy, so you basically have a cerberus and Killjoy in front of you with the Marcus Missile primed and ready to beat face with a hand of 10 cards or so. That he also happens to spam dogs and raptors to get some mass and easy engagement doesn't help either.

 

It can be beat, but it's one of the scariest alpha strikes in the game and one of the more reliable ways to kill a master since that -- to Df makes you a joke. I haven't faced a Marcus going for the Alpha though, so can't really comment on that part, but yeah, I'm still annoyed that Tara and her 100 hoops ability can't be used on masters but Marcus which is a lot more achievable can (yes, I know it's because of bloody Leveticus, but you know what I mean...)

 

Now that we are talking about annoying interactions, really hate the Myranda + imbued energies combo, same cost as a Cerberus, but gets you a Cerberus that moves a lot more first turn, gives you an extra activation which is awesome turn 1 and gets you 4 cards. Imbued energies really needed a "killed sacrificed by enemy" clause in there, since giving fast is already awesome and outcasts only get finish the job as a consolation price on their equivalent and certainly use it a lot too.

 

Metal gamin are another one that irritates me a lot since them protecting themselves makes them be a lot harder than any 4 SS model ever has a business of being and it's really just adding an "no other friendly metal gamin" would cut the insanity.

 

That's all I can think of right of the bat. It's not really game breaking interactions, but it's just stuff that annoys me since it kind of breaks a bit of the elegance of the rest of the system. I mean, why would you ever hire any other 4SS minion on arcanist that isn't the metal gamin unless you are looking for a precise synergy?, it's a bloody df 6 model with Armor +2 and hard to kill whose melee attack all cause Burning +2 on top of their damage of 1, a Monk of the High River would murder for that. Or why would you ever hire a cerberus when you can just hire myranda with imbued energies and get it at the same cost but better in pretty much every other way (if you don't care about not having Myranda's beast support of course).

 

Seems like I'm on an arcanist whine tirade, but it's just the ones I can remember right now, I'm mostly talking about wonky interactions, not so much stuff that feels overpowered. I'm sure all the factions have one or another. I mean, I also really dislike the whole "obey and attack a horror causer to get an easy paralyze" since Obey is already a stupid powerful effect and didn't need to be even more potent and just adding a "this model is immune to Horror and Paralyze during this action" would have covered it except against the Hanged and I'd rather Obey can be used to go over horror than to use it to paralyze a model completely.

 

And blah blah blah, I'm old!

[Csonti]

Now that we are talking about annoying interactions, really hate the Myranda + imbued energies combo, same cost as a Cerberus, but gets you a Cerberus that moves a lot more first turn, gives you an extra activation which is awesome turn 1 and gets you 4 cards. Imbued energies really needed a "killed sacrificed by enemy" clause in there, since giving fast is already awesome and outcasts only get finish the job as a consolation price on their equivalent and certainly use it a lot too.

 

The drawback of this that you can't get an Upgrade on the Cerberus. And a potentially Fast Cerberus is something very evil threatwise in many scenarios.

Anyway I was also amused that this combo was given a green light. Extra 4 cards is just silly and uncalled for in case of this sacrifice trick.

[Cyphre]

Rail Golem and it's Locomotion and Rail bash combo is the must crazy thing I have seen. I was on the receving end of 9 attacks in one activation.

[dgraz]

There are certainly a few things in the game that are a little too good.........there are also a few things that are a little too - not good enough. With so many models, so much synergy, so much crossover, so many abilities........I totally expected there to be a few issues. I'm actually really surprised and impressed that there aren't more.....and as Razhem stated above, there's nothing really game breaking, just a little OTT......(there were a couple bad ones like Diestro on 'Dita, but they were rapidly fixed).

[Sevorin]

 Yeah, I want to reiterate how pleased I am with the state of the game. There are some really strong things out there, but thats ok. It does cause for players to have to know them ahead of time and attack those threats immediately. The RG deal was a huge surprise the first time I faced it. Marcus as well (hell, even Mah Tucket charging me first turn).

 

 Just feel those very few things that did get through need changed, those things that bug me as being inconsistent. Such as Obey not affecting masters, but Alpha being able too.

 

 And yeah, Arcanists are the new Neverborn , haha! (Besides having a scheme that automatically gives them 2 VP every game).

[Hateful Darkblack]

One thing I like about Malifaux is that every Crew has stuff they do that seems so broken you feel like you're cheating when you're doing it, and your opponent needs to check your cards to confirm that it really works that way.

 

Getting your Master Alpha'd seems like it'd be pretty painful. I have no idea if it's too overwhelming. Plenty of Masters can kill another Master in a single turn if they're in position. How much worse is it to take over your opponent's Master for one Activation, with a full turn of setup?

[dgraz]

(Besides having a scheme that automatically gives them 2 VP every game).

Could you fill me in on what that is.

[zFiend]

 

Seriously, this an interesting topic as there really are somethings. Me personally at the moment is Ophelia, her kin and Dumb Luck, that is just terrible, I have not found a crew or a setup to survive that, usually it's one or two models left alive when the game ends if everything goes nicely for me. As well as the damage on the Viktorias, I will never forget about my perfect setup of 2 Illuminated's, a Beckoner, Lynch with Addict me with Assasinate, Vikkie on 2 wounds and within Party Never Ends and Lynch had just made her slow, the feeling I got for the setup of actually making something Brilliant over the turn and sure it would go all nicely. I flipped 1 for Initiative, my opponent 2, I stoned and flipped the Black Joker and then Whirlwind was introduced to me, Lynch with 2 wounds left after that. 

 

Also the fact that people don't even bother on cheating with Lure anymore, I play quite a lot of Rezzers and it's just "Fine go ahead" and it just makes me feel all dirty and dickish. When I am up against Lure, I do the exact same thing, "Fine go ahead" it's a waste of cards. Even when failing on Lure it's just "Yeah just go ahead" and then it's just a 4 or something that is played and that thing goes through. But yeah dead horse blahblah, alright I get it.

[Sevorin]

Could you fill me in on what that is.

 In 1.5 Neverborn always picked kidnap. Auto 2 points. 

 

 I was referring to Arcanists being the new Neverborn (dirty), without the auto 2 vp scheme NB had in 1.5. 

 

 Understand that the comment was made completely tongue in cheek. =)

[Erik1978]

Hi everyone.

 

I've played only 4 games, 2 of the games against my friend who is also new.

 

I've played Nicodem every time and we both seem to feel he's over powered? Actually anyone who can summon a lot of extra models seems to have a huge advantage?

 

Why is noone complaining about summoning 20+ SS worth of models in a 35 SS or 50 SS game?

I mean: Ress. models don't seem to be inferior to other factions, which means those extra models are just a big advatage, aren't they?

 

Also Ramos, who summoned 3 mech spiders every turn, for 5 turns, that seem a bit off balance? 15 spiders 

 

What are your thoughts? Anyone here with many games who can tell me why summoning Masters isn't way better than non-summoners? I realize my experience with the world's best game is limited but how can it not be crazy to summon 2 rogue necromancies to your crew, for free?

[Malal]

people are aware that summoners are ahead of the curve in low SS games. At 50 SS though (the recommended level)  they fall back into line. Some strats and schemes will favour them but Somer for example in Reckoning isn't going to take his summoning upgrade

[Omenbringer]

I would agree that Summoners at the lower encounter levels are potent however would also point out that there are many other things that are equally if not more potent at lower encounter levels as well. The game was intended (read as designed and balanced for) to play at 50ss, when you skew that up or down things get out of whack quickly.

[dgraz]

And any Ramos player that summoned 3 spiders every single turn was un-freakin'-believably luck-tastic!!

[Erik1978]

Yeah he did admit he was getting some pretty "decent" cards every turn.

 

Still, even getting 2 every turn seems tough: Df 6 Wp 6 Armor 1, unimpeded, reduces enemy Df and can make interactions.

 

Last game I played was 50 SS and I summoned a rogue necromancy and a hanged guy... that's basically me playing 69 SS vs 54 because he got a single abomination in play. A big difference I would think?

[brdparker]

Typically, I let my opponent know what big things my guy can do (unless they've played the master before). So for Marcus, I say "He turns you into a beast, and then punishes you for it, and buffs his own beasts. Big thing to watch out for is Alpha, which allows me to take control of an opposing model for and activation. Yes, I can do that to your master as well. Powerful, but it uses a lot of resources."

 

Unless I see a good reason to, I typically try to alpha a minion, as they're not expecting that. I loved the time I alpha'ed Nico's fast Punk Zombie that was right in the middle of his crew, and immediately slice and diced 3x, killing my Jackalope (and bringing out Killjoy), and did some nasty damage to his crew. Then, the slaughter began.