Leveticus's Suicide Mission?

[Hateful Darkblack]

Let's say you take Leveticus with Oath Keeper.

 

Finish the Job: When this model is killed, it may
place a Scheme marker in base contact with itself
before it is removed.

Pariah's Soul: When this model is killed or
sacrificed, it is not killed or sacrificed. Instead,
bury this model. Remove all Conditions and
heal all damage on this model.

Can he drop a Scheme Marker?

 

On the "Yes" side, the argument is that Leveticus's controller gets to pick the order these two abilities apply, and so can drop the Scheme Marker then bring Leveticus back.

 

On the "No" side, the argument seems to be that he's not actually getting killed (since Pariah's Soul says he isn't) and thus doesn't drop a Scheme Marker from Finish the Job.

 

I'm really not sure on this one. I haven't tried it on the table, and it seems like a big argument that's not worth the trouble. But I'm curious. What do y'all think?

[Tuttleboy]

I think it's the no. Mostly because of Pariah's Soul saying he's not killed or sacrificed. But as a Leve player I wouldn't mind getting both.

[Ikvar]

It's a no- we had kinda the same discussion in the neverborn forum, if killjoy could come out when bad juju gets "killed", where we ended with a clear no.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Thanks!

 

This is coming from a discussion on the tactica. Most folks there seem to agree that it's a no.

 

I'm not sure. Clearly, at some point, he was being killed, because that's what triggered Pariah's Soul.

 

It would make sense to say "Pariah's Soul cancels out anything else that triggers on him getting killed, because it says he's not killed."

 

But I could also see an argument "You pick the order, so you can sneak in a Finish the Job in between."

 

General Timing (little book, p. 51) isn't totally definitive on it. And it makes sense that Finish the Job wouldn't apply, since Pariah's Soul would cancel it. But it also makes sense that you could sneak it in there. I've never had it come up, since I've never bought Oath Keeper for Levy, and usually sacrifice Levy anyway.

 

(To be clear, I'm talking about times when Leveticus is killed. If he's sacrificed, Finish the Job definitely doesn't apply.)

[Hateful Darkblack]

It's a no- we had kinda the same discussion in the neverborn forum, if killjoy could come out when bad juju gets "killed", where we ended with a clear no.

 

Oh, I see the discussion here: http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/99691-the-bad-juju-thread/

 

Is that the one you mean?

[crikeymiles]

Having read this thread, and the Juju thread, and the "General Timing" box on p51 of the Rules Manual, I'm still left with some questions about how the Assassinate scheme interacts with Pariah's Soul.  Apologies if I have missed another thread on this, but I couldn't find one using search.

 

 

Assassinate: If the enemy Leader is killed or sacrificed, reveal this Scheme.  If the enemy Leader is killed or sacrificed, gain 2 VP.  If this happens on or before Turn 4, score 3 VP instead.

 

If my opponent is playing Leveticus, and I take the Assassinate scheme, are any of the following true:

1. It is turn 2. It is my opponent's activation. My opponent uses Leve's ability (0) Sanguine Evocations, which says "sacrifice this model".  Do I score for Assassinate, as the enemy Leader has been sacrificed?
2. It is turn 2. It is my activation.  I shoot Leveticus and remove his last wound.  Do I score for Assassinate?
3. It is the end of the game.  Having used (0) Sanguine Evocations to bury himself in turn 5, I succeed in killing his last anchor, and Leve cannot use Eternal Shackles to unbury.  Do I score for Assassinate?

My proposed answers, based on my interpretations of the written rules:

1. No. As the "Acting Model" (p51), and the active player, Leveticus can resolve the Pariah's Soul ability before I can resolve the text of the Assassinate scheme.  I do not need to reveal Assassinate, and can continue to attempt to kill Leveticus in later turns.
2. Yes. As the "Acting Model", and the active player, I can reveal and resolve Assassinate before the "Defending Model" (Leve) can resolve the the Pariah's Soul ability.  As it is turn 2, I score the full 3 VP.
3. Yes. Because p54 of the Rules Manual says: "models that are buried at the end of the game count as killed for Encounter victory purposes.  I score 2 VP, as I am revealing the scheme after turn 4.

All of the the above makes the assumption that the text on my "Assassinate card" (which doesn't physically exist) follows exactly the same timing rules as "Abilities" on models cards do, and doesn't exist in some out-of-activation super-timing-state that trumps this other timing rule.

 

Does this sound right?

 

Thanks,

Mike

[The Godlyness]

You NEVER TAKE Assassinate against Levi. Max points you can gain is 2 and that is only if you kill all his waifs and him. Levi never is killed or sacrificed. Only buried. And buried models at the end of the game count as killed. So 3 points since it did not happen before turn 3.

[The Godlyness]

Or void wretchs. Lots of void wretchs to kill him while he is buried.

[Nicodemic]

Yep thats the only way

[infernosolarc]

 

 

Pariah's Soul: When this model is killed or

sacrificed, it is not killed or sacrificed. Instead,

bury this model. Remove all Conditions and

heal all damage on this model.

 

This ability ONLY triggers when Leveticus is killed or is sacrificed. Same wording as Assassinate and Finish the Job. He does die. He just doesn't stay dead.

 

So, timing matters. I would say that, under the Rules As Written, you would get the points for Assassinating Leve in Scenario 2 and 3 above. 

 

I would also say, with Rules As Written, that you would get to drop a Scheme marker. 

 

While Leve does not end up dying, he must be dead at some point, or Pariah would never trigger. 

 

If the wording was

"When this model would be killed or sacrificed, it is not...."

 

I would agree that you never get 4 points for Assassinate and you cannot use Finish the Job. As they are currently written, and how the rules for simultaneous actions work, that the player in control of Leve can be dead when he wants to be, and then cancel that death afterwards. 

 

However, I am perfectly willing for that interpretation to be wrong or unintended. It probably shouldn't work that way. But, right now, at a tournament, that is how I believe the rules would work.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Assassinate: You only get 2 VP for Assassinate for killing him at the end of the game. Doesn't matter if he self-sacrifices or you shoot him, he's not really dead until the end of the last turn. (Unless the Void Wretches kill him.)

[The Godlyness]

You just quoted what it is with what you want it to be.... it says he is not killed. So no markers or assassinate.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Having read this thread, and the Juju thread, and the "General Timing" box on p51 of the Rules Manual, I'm still left with some questions about how the Assassinate scheme interacts with Pariah's Soul.  Apologies if I have missed another thread on this, but I couldn't find one using search.

 

 

If my opponent is playing Leveticus, and I take the Assassinate scheme, are any of the following true:

1. It is turn 2. It is my opponent's activation. My opponent uses Leve's ability (0) Sanguine Evocations, which says "sacrifice this model".  Do I score for Assassinate, as the enemy Leader has been sacrificed?
2. It is turn 2. It is my activation.  I shoot Leveticus and remove his last wound.  Do I score for Assassinate?
3. It is the end of the game.  Having used (0) Sanguine Evocations to bury himself in turn 5, I succeed in killing his last anchor, and Leve cannot use Eternal Shackles to unbury.  Do I score for Assassinate?

 

1. No. When you sacrifice Leveticus, he's still not sacrificed.

2. No. When you kill Leveticus, he's still not killed.

3. Yes! You score 2 VP for Assassinate.

[Adran]

My personal reading of this is that The model abilities will all occur before the Scheme finally gets to check. Since the Assasinate is not a model ability it will never be able to be claimed before Leveticus is able to use his paraih ability, preventing his death.

 

I also can't see how void wretches killing Leveticus whilst he is buried will bypass Pariahs soul either. (Buried models don't get to declare triggers when defending or drop markers, but their abilities and conditions would still apply, although thats from memory, so I might be mis remembering))

 

So the answers are No, No, yes.

[zFiend]

That would be my understanding as well:

 

1. No.

2. No.

3. Yes.

[crikeymiles]

My personal reading of this is that The model abilities will all occur before the Scheme finally gets to check. Since the Assassinate is not a model ability it will never be able to be claimed before Leveticus is able to use his paraih ability, preventing his death.

 

So the answers are No, No, yes.

 

Okay, so our assumption, based on the "General Timing" pop-out box, is that Triggers happen first, followed by Abilities (in the order specified), followed by anything else that isn't a Trigger or an Ability, which would include Schemes, terrain traits, and anything else.

 

Works for me.  I wouldn't mind an FAQ clarification for this, as it's based on something being absence from the General Timing rules, rather than an explicit ruling.

 

Cheers guys! 

[Hateful Darkblack]

Abilities that are triggered by death don't happen when you die while buried.

 

(Source: "Dead & Buried", little rulebook, p.54)

 

So he doesn't come back if Void Wretches kill him while he's buried.