Do auras extend down?

[Tuttleboy]

Do auras, and by extension pulses, go down from a models base? I ask because I tend to put Dreamer on elevated terrain and use his Safe in My Bed trigger to pass damage to nightmares that are below him. From what I read it looks like I'm a cheating bastard and it can't be done because auras and pulses do not extend down from a model's base.  I've posted the rules from the book about the height of auras and pulses. If I've missed something, please point me to a page.

 

 

 

• An Aura is centered on a model and radiates out in all directions from the edge of the model’s base and moves with that model as it moves. By default, all objects within the Aura’s area, including the model it is centered on, are affected by the Aura until they are no longer within it or the effect ends. However, some effects will note that only certain models are affected.
• An Aura has the same Ht as the model it comes from unless specified otherwise.
• A Pulse without a Ht listed is Ht 5.

[Dracomax]

I think that s only go out sideways, due to being the same height as the model, and being centered on the model.

 

s might be arguable. I think they start at the base, but I'm not entirely sure.

[dgraz]

Seems arguable in any case. The 'radiates out in all directions' part specifically is a grey area.

[Dracomax]

The problem is the rest of the definition.

 

We know it starts at the base.

We know that it must include the Model in question.

We know that it is the Ht of the model.

We know that it is centered to the model.

 

Therefore, we know that it is centered to the model, and touching the base. As such, it must either go up, or down. Next, we check whether the model itself is within the aura, and only with the aura going up from the base is that true. With it being the Ht of the model, it cannot go beyond the top of the model.

 

At best, the only possible arguement I could see is that you could center the on the base(I think the fact it says centered on the model precludes this, but for the sake of argument) giving you about half the model's Ht below, generally 1".

[dgraz]

Hey.....not that I personally would argue it. Just seems a potential grey area.

[Dracomax]

Yeah, just wanted to make sure my logic was clear so if someone did argue about it, they could refute it rather than just saying, "nuh uh."

[Wild Razor]

My first few games I thought that the "extends in all directions" line meant that an ability with an Aura 8 would extend not just out 8, but up and down 8 as well.  When I found the line that states an Aura has a defined Ht equal to that of the model generating it however I learned how I think it is intended to work.  Dracomax's logic is sound from my understanding.  You have to remember in Malifaux, when you're measuring out anything, including auras, it is from a "top down" view, vertical height is ignored, and everything is basically 2 dimensional.  I assume that it is in this perspective that the "extends in all directions" line is intended to be applied.  The 3rd dimension, the Ht is then factored in after the area is measured out, and since it is a Ht coming off the base of the generating model, it can only be considered to go upwards by my interpretation of the rules as they are most likely intended.  I will admit as written there are other ways to look at it, but the upward only interpretation seems to be the most reasonable view once you factor in how other similar mechanics work.

[Pierowmaniac]

Good question and one I seem to remember thinking about, during a rulebook read through, though I forgot to note it down or ask.

[The Godlyness]

What if I lay my model upside down? Would it then extend well downwards the ht of him? But otherwise no clear answer. So in my humblest of opinions I say it extends the ht of the model down. Or infinity whichever!

[Tuttleboy]

Up is still up if the model is upside down.

[hypoking]

I'm not entirely sure 'down' exists in Malifaux. Ht isn't additive. A Ht 1 model standing on a Ht4 piece of terrain is never treated as Ht5. I think its a top down perspective thing where models are always on the same absolute level. I don't know though, vertical distance is all sorts of screwy in this game.

[Wild Razor]

I'm not entirely sure 'down' exists in Malifaux. Ht isn't additive. A Ht 1 model standing on a Ht4 piece of terrain is never treated as Ht5. I think its a top down perspective thing where models are always on the same absolute level. I don't know though, vertical distance is all sorts of screwy in this game.

 

Review Rules for Vantage Points where height starts doing all kinds of screwy things as you said and LOS and other things start going down at angles.  (we've been discussing just this in another topic).  The original post specifies the Dreamer being on a Vantage point and asks if his aura reaches friendly nightmare models not on vantage points (at ground level).  Best as I can interpret the rules the answer to that is no.

[Bengt]

With the lack of full 3D, if you have a structure with multiple levels, do the rules allow a model stand directly above another? Or even walk past (assuming it lacks Incorporeal or similar)?

[RagingRodian]

I would say no. An aura, as described in the rules, is not a sphere (which would extend below the base) but a clearly defined cylinder. The cylinder has a height equal to the height of the generating model, emanating straight out from the side edge of the base of the emanating model. To have an aura that is blow the model's base you would effectively need to have a "negative height" on the effect, and I haven't heard of anything having both a height and a negative height.

For an aura to have an effect on another models you have to be able to draw a line of sight line on both the emanating model's and target's bases. If the target is below the emanating model it is impossible to be targeted by the aura as the aura cannot draw sight lines downwards. However, as the aura has a height, if a model is slightly elevated above the emanating model but it's base is still within the aura's height it could potentially be affected by it, as you could have line of sight lines that are still within the area covered by the aura.

At least that is my interpretation.

[TJUK]

I think RagindRodian is spot on. As long as the aura has a specified HT (the height of the model), it seems like it would only be acting in the same plane as the model; like a cylinder centred on the casting model. If it were to be able to extend below the model it could bring up all kinds of issues with any HT value,if a firendly model is blocking LOS players could just say that the HT was working downwards so it's not blocking anything. I know it's a far fetched example but in my head at least it solidifies why the HT value always has to work upwards from the base.

[Dracomax]

I really hope in M3E they actually go full 3d for rules. It would make the 3d table top easier...

 

Another 3D point I've raised before. Does Sonnia's Pyrokinesis allow her to move blast up or down?i.e. if She targets someone on a vantage point, with another model in LOS who is not on the Vantage point, can she move the blasts such that they hit the model who is not on the vantage point? it does say move in any direction.

[The Zinc Lich]

I'd also like to see an official ruling on this, mostly because I also have a Dreamer player that I regularly play against, and we've argued about whether or not he's able to Safe in my Bed an infinite distance downwards.

 

From a game balance stand point, I would say no, because the Dreamer standing on a high enough piece of terrain becomes effectively impossible to attack, and can simply stand there, summoning models on the ground floor with no reprisal. And that kind of irks me.