Monks of low river and Tengu

[DeleteAccount]

OK, basically, now that wave 2 is tied and done, well, we have gotten a lot of new yummy toys out of it. Thing is, the river monks have been pretty much completely replaced in my lists by Tengu. Monks I see mostly as objective grabbers that happen to also remove conditions at a very short range, but Tengu are leaps and bounds better at the objective thing and there is a limit to how many cheap fodder that can't fight itself out of a wet paper bag I can bring to the table. Also doesn't help that I tend to prefer to pay a bit extra to get Chiaki into the mix.

 

So basically, how are other people's experience with river monks been? Do you feel like me where it's hard to justify more than one or have you gotten some good results out of 2-3 and how?

[zFiend]

Well I'm not sure if this is off topic but, I can't get my mind around the Monks, what the hell are they supposed to do/be? 

[chris_havoc]

I've not used them in a while because I was waiting for models but I love the Monks.

Never used Tengu but they are obviously better at Objective running and even denying opponents' objectives. However, they are so obviously the objective runners that they have a target on their back from the word go. They are survivable to a degree but 5 Wd and Df/Wp 4 will go down pretty quick. They are very quick though.

The Monks are really really survivable. A 4 point Minion model with 5 Wd and Df/Wp 5 is pretty good. They are by no means slow but compared to Tengu they are. They gain defensive without the use of cards and in groups with Ca actions they heal themselves very well. Basically they hold objectives like nobody's business with the right crew and scheme pool. But they are not at all a threatening card and so your opponent will likely leave them be to accomplish their objectives. Especially in a Misaki cre where she is committing distracting murder somewhere far away.

[flindo]

honestly, before the official Wave II release comes out, Wyrd should give Gremlins SOME love, I mean everyone else pretty much got their factions fully established, it seems fair.

[DeleteAccount]

Well I'm not sure if this is off topic but, I can't get my mind around the Monks, what the hell are they supposed to do/be? 

Well, the gist I get from them is that they are condition control, enemy annoyers (engage and don't let go) and objective grabbers. Problem is yeah, they are decently hardy for 4 SS minions, but most things will just plow through them anyway and their condition control is so short ranged that you have to always be preplanning around it so you don't find yourself out of range when it matters the most.

 

I will try to use monks instead of tengu on my next list, but not being able to hurt anybody in any way or form has left me a bit meh with them, ending up once engaged with a ramos spider with no net gain of any kind.

[Mako]

I remember back in the beta when they didn't have a rare limit - 10 of them results in a total shutdown of the enemy...

 

I suspect that in a pair, or with other things keeping one company, they can really tangle up some of the enemy. But that's theory.

[zFiend]

Yeah okay, they remove conditions.. But they had ml range of 1", so they would need to really close and they would need to be in large numbers to say, remove the Fast condition from a Tara crew. But they don't do that much else, they have 0 offensive capabilities and when they get tied up, it's just tying them up and getting beaten themselves Maybe they just don't suit my playstyle or whatever, but I am still having a hard time ever even considering them  

 

Thanks for the clarifications though.

[DeleteAccount]

I remember back in the beta when they didn't have a rare limit - 10 of them results in a total shutdown of the enemy...

 

I suspect that in a pair, or with other things keeping one company, they can really tangle up some of the enemy. But that's theory.

True, but this was also a time where they had 6 wds and this action

 

(1) Rapid Waters Timeless Voice (Ml 7 / Rst: Df / Rg y1): This model gains

the Defensive +1 Condition. This Attack Action has this effect when taken as

a Disengaging Strike.

 

Which made them a lot better for tanking and distracting. Now they only get defensive when they succeed on a disengaging strike which is a lot less likely.

[Mako]

Ah, true. Forgot they'd lost that defensive action. Oh well, I'll be getting some anyway so it doesn't really bother me either way!

[daemonkin]

I found myself puttinf the monks into my crew at the weekend - both High and Low and then removing them for my tanky models - samurai and Lone Swordsman - as it was Reckoning and I just couldn't justify them over more survivable models.

 

Still want to try them out.

 

D.

[DeleteAccount]

True, but this was also a time where they had 6 wds and this action

 

(1) Rapid Waters Timeless Voice (Ml 7 / Rst: Df / Rg y1): This model gains

the Defensive +1 Condition. This Attack Action has this effect when taken as

a Disengaging Strike.

 

Which made them a lot better for tanking and distracting. Now they only get defensive when they succeed on a disengaging strike which is a lot less likely.

Ok, rereading this I'm thinking I had a horrible brain fart here, they can still defensive for free which is a lot more efficient than doing this, so they only really lost 1 wd in the whole process. Still not really that sure about them though. I should give them more chances.

[Fatesealer]

Ten Thunders have a fair number of 'killy' models like Misaki, Ototo, and torakage. In my limited experience, adverse conditions like slow, paralyze, (and 2 a lesser extent mutiple poison or burning conditions) can greatly hamper thier effectiveness. For past encounters, I have used things like Oiran and Shang as supporting elements.  I have monks on order from the local shop, so I'm eager to try them as substitutes for these other support models. I'm beginning to beleive that monks will keep my killy models more effective overall. Thus, I won't miss any of the small damage potential that could be done by Oiran.

[SubParNinja]

Just a noob's thought: I've been wanting to make these work and thought maybe you could use them to tie up key models. If you have a way of engaging before they activate like an Oiran lure then on their activation they can use both AP for defensive stances. The enemy either has to deal with them or disengage, with the right cards you could hold them.

Turns after that you can do schemes like distract while the rest of the crew has one less person to deal with.

[Sevorin]

Anyone that can hand out the focus condition to minions make them even better for shutting down higher point models (Shenlong, Toshiro). If they are engaged, you defensive twice with them, and with the focused condition, they should be able to lock down damn near anything (bad flipping not withstanding).

 

 If you want to kill stuff though, you don't bring them (reckoning) unless you have dedicated models to reckoning that you know can get the job done (which isn't hard to do in 10T).

 

 Tengu are good as well, but fill a different role, imo. Definitely not as survivable.

[chris_havoc]

I still think they are pretty great. The (0) heal is pretty awesome on top of the things you've mentioned. I have a Misaki list that looks like this:

Misaki 5

Disguised

Misdirection

Untouchable

Yamaziko 8

Smoke and Shadows

Dawn Serpent 10

2 Oiran 10

3 Monks of the Low River 12

For Turf War this is crazy good. Sit them on the objective and park Yamaziko and the Dawn Serpent behind the Monks and you have a braced line of tough Monks and a Dawn Serpent spitting fire over them. If anyone other than Yamaziko suffers the can Call Unto Chi and heal themselves 4wds. All the while Misaki and the Oiran can hold up models further up the table. It's also a great crew vs. Wp shenanigans with all the high Wp and Oiran making it higher.

[Thrawnic]

As someone who plays both Ressers and Ten thunders Monks are there for playing against Sonnia and McMourning and Condition dependent crews. Shut down their Condition spam and Mcmourning gets no summoning. Sonnia cant ignore LOS etc.

[zFiend]

As someone who plays both Ressers and Ten thunders Monks are there for playing against Sonnia and McMourning and Condition dependent crews. Shut down their Condition spam and Mcmourning gets no summoning. Sonnia cant ignore LOS etc.

 

But doesn't Chiaki do that quite efficiently from a distance? 

[DeleteAccount]

But doesn't Chiaki do that quite efficiently from a distance? 

True, but she is 2 SS more (3 if you add her upgrade) and the monk doesn't have a TN for the condition removal to work. So the monk can still work as a budget condition removal, his mobility is the problem in that scenario though, since if he can't connect, he can't drop conditions.

[zFiend]

True, but she is 2 SS more (3 if you add her upgrade) and the monk doesn't have a TN for the condition removal to work. So the monk can still work as a budget condition removal, his mobility is the problem in that scenario though, since if he can't connect, he can't drop conditions.

 

I don't know, I have tried to see their function and usability but frankly, I don't see it. 

[Joel]

Monks of low river with McCabe.

He passes them the glowing sabre - makes one faster and gives it a valuable attack too.

[DeleteAccount]

I don't know, I have tried to see their function and usability but frankly, I don't see it. 

Well, that is their function and usability, budget tarpits that can remove conditions and do objective running, nobody said they were amazing at it XD

 

They are mostly budget condition protection, you really really want something that can remove conditions (facing ressers for example) but you are strapped on stones so would rather try to not reach for Chiaki or just want a bit more numbers? That's when the monk comes in. He isn't a goto model since he is a bit of a generalist outside of the condition removal and generalists tend to always wander in the middle of nowhere.

[Joel]

Basically, I'd use monks of low river for squatters, and tengu for breakthrough-like stuff

[zFiend]

Well, that is their function and usability, budget tarpits that can remove conditions and do objective running, nobody said they were amazing at it XD

 

Hahaha. Well I just struggle to see their point still. If you want a tarpit Izamu does it quite efficiently and a lot of other things, so he can pull his weight in stones also Yin does it quite well and a lot more for it's cost. Chiaki can really endure with Incorporeal, can move models away, heal while taking away conditions. 

 

Really hard to see why I would take the Monks. 

[DeleteAccount]

Well, I do have a hard time reaching for the monk myself, but the whole point is that a monk gives you condition removal, tarpit and throwaway objective grabber at a much more budget cost than a couple of ancestors. So if you for example want to use other heavy duty models like Sensei Yu, Sidir, Fuhatsu, Kang and so and so, points start getting strapped and something has to give, downgrading Chiaki into a monk can give you a bit more numbers and let you upgrade an illuminted into a lone swordsman with recalled training for example.

[CaladanCid]

Also the lower the cost of the model the better flashing sabre becomes. In my opinion anyway. I haven't used the LR Monks outside McCabe though, and it was only one game.....but I enjoyed it haha.