Nagi21

Life leech would be 2E misery if it could work that way XD

In this one particular scenario yes.

I've already stated that 6a states all healing effects (and pg25 is somewhat contradictory to the chart on pg 34), however in this case they would die simultaneously and the simultaneous effect would go the choice of the controller. Each model gets its own damage sequence. In this specific case, the whisperer would heal the squealer.

I'm not sure that would work as intended. Life leech would fall under the multiple auras rule like Misery. Edit: Although now that I think about it, the fact that each model would heal due to a model in an aura doing something is similar to the bushwacker example used by Wyrd in the rulebook of multiple auras with the same name working so... not sure.

The second half of that statement isn't making any sense.

My argument is pretty contradictory and takes reading form both pg 25 under "Killed" and the pg 34 timing sequence. Specifically pg 25 states when a model is killed (and since we've established they would both die at the same time and be considered "killed" at the start of step 6), "any Healing effects" happen first. The Whisperer's demise ability is most certainly a "Healing effect", regardless of the fact that it is also a demise effect, which would lead it happening in 6a (the simultaneous death of both models has already been touched upon). Pg 25 also states that "If a model is healed after it was killed as a result of being reduced to 0 Health, it no longer counts as killed." That's as cut and dry as it gets unless we want to get into weird territory where models can survive with 0 health (which that statement could be construed to allow if we torture the English language enough...). Tl;dr: I disagree with that post vehemently and state my reasons thusly.

Rule 1 when figuring out a ruling: Which thing fixes the most things?

"After this model is Killed, a friendly beast within 3" may heal 2." is the demise effect of the whisperer. Both models are considered killed at the start of step 6 before a-d. So either both models are considered killed simultaneously, which mean the controlling player would choose which one resolves its entire step 6 first, or the whisperer's heal would be the one used for the killed model at 6a, prior to the demise ability of 6c squealer.

No it doesn't, that's my point. It specifically states ANY, which would include outside models (healing auras and in this case, other model's demise abilities).

The crux of that being that step 6a states "Resolve any effects that would heal or Replace the killed model". This specifically doesn't limit it to the model being attacked or killed. Any effect that would apply to heal the model would happen here RAW.

Also not a great choice because most of his skills rely on beasts, and he needs several models not the box to be any good. I would consider Viktoria and Titania.

For the first half of that, that is true however you have to account for when the damage prevention step comes into play, because when you take damage, models that can reduce via shielded et al. can do that step immediately. I'm fairly certain that takes precedence over everything else (since otherwise you have weird things where models can't actually reduce damage while having damage reduction, due to timing issues, which is of course, not the intention of any rule). For the second part, the rules for simultaneous effects state that "the active player does their effects first in the order of their choosing", followed by the non-active player in the same way. The tricky part is that step 6a states "Resolve any effects that would heal or Replace the killed model". The english language would take this to mean that this includes effects not on the model being killed as well. Additionally, multiple demise abilities are of the variety "this model heals x" (juju, Serena, Killjoy). These models do not drop markers when their demise effect goes off due to the healing (if this is wrong then I have never seen someone play this rule correctly ever so I'm going with the common sense rule). Frankly there should be a separate step between c and d for dropping markers for killed models specifically, however precedent (for several editions) is that models that are not removed do not drop corpse/scheme markers without special rules applying. To your point however, I am in the camp that the squealer would heal on step 6a, and not be killed, therefore not getting it's demise ability. As it's demise ability is not a "heal" it would have to wait until 6c to be triggered, whereas the healing ability of the Whisperer's demise would happen on 6a (so only one scheme marker).

I think in this specific case with this specific trigger, since the damage is a cost and the cost is paid at the trigger declaration phase, the damage would happen immediately per page 34 (because step 4 is the part where you take the actual damage for the cost). Then you would do step 5 which is when black blood does its thing as an after damaging ability. The pigs can reduce that damage via different means which means that's the start of another set of damage steps. It seems fairly clear in this specific case.

As much as it pains me to say it, step 6c states "Any effects that resolve after the model is killed resolve at this point.". This is before step 6d where the model is removed. Pg 25 states in the 4th paragraph "If a model is healed after it was killed as a result of being reduced to 0 health, it no longer counts as killed (and is not removed from the game)." Since the black blood triggered off a single action, that action is resolved before anything else, and the deaths would occur during the same timing, keeping the squealer alive. Edit: Hayreddin's ability happens before the damage flip, however for it to be triggered, the attack flip must be successful, which would cause it to be a trigger off that action. The question then becomes a matter of timing for when the damage flip happens, before or after the black blood damage (the hog whisperer demise would still have the same timing and result as above in either case). Double Edit: Pg 34 states "When a model suffers damage, it follows the timing below." Hayreddin's trigger does not happen immediately happens during trigger declaration, however it has a +1 for every damage taken. I forget how this was ruled, but if the damage is added to the result of the damage flip, then the black blood would happen, and you would still get a damage flip against the squealer after the black blood/healing question above. If it's considered separate pings, then it would happen after the damage flip, and the squealer would be dead before the black blood damage. TLDR: The damage is a cost either before or after the damage flip, which due to you attacking the squealer and not the whisperer, means that while the heal would work to save his pig, either it is already dead from the 4 damage strike, or it is alive with +2 wds (and the whisperer is dead) against the damage flip and black blood for the original strike. I am firmly in the camp that the black blood damage happens after the trigger declaration phase, dealing 1 damage to each and causing the heal to the squealer, then performing the damage flip.

How would I prepare for this? I'd call my opponent and say gg, then ask he wants a rematch with a new strat and scheme pool... If that's not an option? I'd take my best nephilim list and adjust it to pay the tax for having Dora as a leader. Let me explain the sheer lopsidedness of this matchup: 1) Two of your schemes are not going to happen right off the bat. Corner Outflank Dora is impossible unless you basically bring a nephilim list with Dora leading. It's just not going to happen. Deliver is a bit more simple to explain. You can't score it while there's a false witness around Lucius, and a good Lucius player will always take one for the utility. Power ritual you could score one point on but putting down scheme markers and keeping them vs Lucius is this side of insanity, especially in a small area like one of the corners. This leaves Vendetta and Prisoner, neither of which is ideal for you. Reason being, Lucy has obeys out the ass. Elite (ironically) has low ss models as its core, which means you will need to use low ss minions to do the vendetta-ing. As soon as you score one point, Agent 46 is going to find that model and murder it. Period. End of story. Take prisoner has the same issue. You score one point, now whenever you setup for prisoner he obeys out of it. He'd have to make a massive mistake for you to score two points on any of these. So right there, you're getting at most 2 points off of a very predictable scheme pool. 2) Plant explosives. Remember that corner outflank issue? Dora can't be in both sides at once, and Lucius has enough movement tricks to swing from one side to the other after you commit. He has multiple ways to keep you from interacting, and multiple ways to be where you can't. At best you could punch through and keep pace, but even that's unlikely due to his obeys and activations, and at that point you will leave easy scheme points on the board. 3) Corner deployment. If you take a changling and a hooded rider and maybe a mature nephilim, you might be able to reach the centerline and whichever corner you want by turn 2. By this point Lucy will have already crossed into your half of the board and know which direction you're going for to avoid a large fight. This leaves turns 3/4/5 to let the big boys try and chase down the planters and schemers... which they may do but then that's over half your ss doing just that. Lucy can bring a hammer and they are some big hammers. You just can't be in enough places quickly enough to deny anything without leaving a massive hole in your defenses. I'm not trying to be negative for the sake of being negative. This is the situation and it's... bad. If you can make a "Woe"-ish crew work with this, you're a better player than me, or your opponent is brand new to the game or Lucius. The only legit chance I see is you bring basically a fast, nephilim-like crew (Hina, Matures, maybe Nekima) and throw out the idea of this being a "Pandora" crew. Use Dora as a support piece, but you are not winning this playing "Pandora". Lucius does everything she does here but better, and it's not even close. If I had to guess what the outcome of this game would be, before even seeing the crews, I'd place a bet on... 7-3 Lucius.

Dora/Nekima/Titania mostly. Dreamer and Lucy incoming. Search is only "difficult" for Dora and even that I've not had issues with because she's inevitably moving across that centerline unless she's losing. But again it's dependent on terrain. A lot of tables I see/play on have terrain only a few inches from the center. I suppose as long as Dreamer has the activations to spare it's reasonable to do that one. You know how squishy low ss woes are and the nephilim are even squishier if you can believe. Outflank is one I hear a lot about but it's doable for Neph very easily, and Titania and Dreamer can both do it with a little effort. Not to mention everyone can deny outflank without much issue (even Dora).

Free stiched for days bois!

Hold Up Their Forces: 50/50, depending on what you bring to the table. Savage works slightly better with this since they are the tanky crew in the faction. Take Prisoner: We have a lot of options for this but bear in mind that generally we don't want to be leaving models around to do whatever they want. We don't have that many options to cripple models while keeping them alive. Outflank: Feasible for basically any of our crews (yes even Dora) in standard or wedge. Corner turns this into a Nephilim only strategy (but they do love it~). Assassinate: Very matchup dependent. Also you will often run into an issue of whether you want to keep that leader alive for one more turn to get both points or settle for the single murder point (this one is more strat dependent than crew dependent). Deliver a message: Easy one point but it requires leaving the enemy leader alive which 90% of the time is either A) Too deadly to be left alive or 2) Too mobile to get the second point on anyway. Also means that you're likely giving up a free point as well since aside from Lucius and Zoraida, our leaders always want to be in the thick of things. Claim Jump: This one is pretty reliable for just about anything, so long as you pick the right model. Woes, Nightmares, Nephilim, etc all want the enemy to come to them on their terms. Serena, Candy (sooooo much candy), Vasilisa, Hina, etc. Anything that can survive a turn in the center is a good option here. Just don't take it into a mid v. mid fight (i.e. Toni). Vendetta: This is a nephilim strat every game. Literally. If you're not taking this you better have a good reason. Grab a BBS, pick an enemy 6ss model, and grow that boy into a 10 stone hunter with one job. The only catch is making sure you don't murder them too quickly. That being said, I hesitate to say this is good for other crews (savage works due to the tankiness) since it requires the friendly model to survive, which is not something we do particularly well... Detonate charges: Don't. It doesn't work well. We only have one or two models that can lay down non-interact scheme markers and those are very telling. There's 4 other schemes in the pool. Move on. Breakthrough: Widow and Bander are options. This one really depends on the deployment. Flank is doable for about half the crews, corner is almost impossible for anything that isn't Nephilim. It's an option, but shouldn't be the first one. Harness the leyline: Looks bad, really isn't. Leyline means using some AP to put markers on the centerline. Bad right? Here's the rub: Where does your opponent need to come to stop said markers? As neverborn you should (almost) always want to take the center and force a fight there where reinforcements can come fast and furious (doubly so if it's something like Idols). Now there are some crews where this is a bad idea (Hi Nellie...), but this one is a pocket pick for when you need a scheme that can force your opponent to play your game. Dig their graves: A couple of gimmicks make this feasible, but it's difficult keeping it secret while doing it. Nephilim blood hunter + wicked doll = easy second point, the tricky part being figuring out when to dump an AP to drop a scheme marker for an easy kill. Ironically most of the gaggle has the opposite problem. Important thing to remember is it's corpse OR scrap markers. Wicked dolls are 4 stones and useful all around, and easily sacrificed in a pinch, same for pups. BBS is an option OOK but at that point you might as well be telling your opponent your game ahead of time (could be an interesting fake out though...). Power ritual: I hold that there's no good reason to take this if there's breakthrough in the pool in 80% of games, but that's not the important bit. This is a possible take in corner or flank deployments for one point, but this is definitely not a scheme to expect two points out of without your opponent making an error. Search the ruins: Board dependent. Five interacts seems like a lot, but if there's terrain near the midline a turn 2 search is generally feasible if the game hasn't devolved into a slobberknocker. It will get you 2 points more often than not unless you've lost board control (in which case good luck to ya lads...) or there's no good terrain. Top 3 schemes not accounting for matchup: 1) Claim Jump 2) Search the Ruins 3) Harness the Leyline Worst 3 schemes not accounting for matchup: 3) Hold Up (again our low ss models are very squishy) 2) Breakthrough\Power Ritual (these two have the same issues and are interchangeable depending on deployment) 1) Detonate charges

I've had good luck with her vs McMourning since his crew is usually the one getting said poison, and ripping it off is not that difficult. First thing that comes to mind for offensive poison would be pandora and a changling both with eldritch magic.

Too strong for Candy, even as a Pandora player. Misery/aura restrictions are the only thing keeping Pandora from being as good as she was in 2E (which she really needs but that's neither here nor there). If Candy could ignore half of those restrictions, she's a better leader than Dora at that point.

Why's that? A lot of stuff evasion ignores?

Lyssa is not terribly good without something to generate Pillars, either your crew or theirs. Sorrows are good vs crews that don't have a lot of murder built into them (Nellie, Colette, etc), since they are only 5 wds and at their defense, 2 ap can wipe them out easily enough before they can heal up. Aversions are the standard I would say. Yes it's one more stone, but for that you get the built in wp duel which can protect vs melee hitters, and 7 effective wounds means it will take at least 2 ap, usually 3 from 99% of sources. Also Scatter is a non resist ability to repo your opponent and frightening reminder helps move key models (Candy and Dora) up the table. Easily worth the extra soulstone even if you lose the stunned bonus ability.

Grab a Killjoy for Titania with those Rougarou. They synergize nicely to move each other around and murder.

Earlier tonight I had a thought that for all the talk about nerfs and buffs and OP and trash models, it's very rare that two people see the same thing the same. One might say TT are too strong, one might say NVB are too strong, and really if everyone had their way, nothing or everything would change. Anyway, I was curious as to the community's opinion on the NVB faction, so I came up with a little thought exercise. What 3 things would you buff and how, and what 3 things would you nerf and how? I'm just curious to see if there's any consensus on the strong and weak points of the faction. Two things: 1) Please try to be civil... 2) Please don't let this turn into a massive discussion about stitched. We know. There's a thread on that. Go there. List it if you want.

I always have the sorrow/aversion get sniped unless I keep it way back, which isn't so useful for them, but very useful for the changeling.